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Old 13-03-2018, 10:21   #16
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

Are you trying to cope with Fear of Backing Syndrome :-)?

Your particular boat, because of her long keel and substantial rudder, will back very well indeed - once you are making better than 1 1/2 knot sternway, though not before. So your job is to get up to steerage way, then back out to "B", turn to port, still backing at steerageway, continue to "C" and turn port again, straighten up in mid-fairway and stop. Now go forward and head straight out to sea. Remember that while backing, you can stop dead in the water in half a boat length by engaging forward and going full ahead till the boat stops. That will take about 3 or 4 seconds. Count elephants to verify this so your will really KNOW what the response time is: one elephant - two elephants - three...

At 1 1/2 knots astern you will need VERY large rudder deflections to steer her, and the rudder, because it is unbalanced, will tend to take charge, so hang on to the wheel :-)!

The only tricky bit is to clear the vessel lying to your port when you are in your slip. Your freeboard is enuff that it would NOT be safe to have a crew member walk your bows to the end of your finger and then try to mount 'er over the bows. This is a "single-handing" job, even when you have crew! You should be able to do it single handed in any case.

There is a lot of heft to your boat. She is 50% heavier than mine on the same waterline, and we have the same horsepower. Therefore her initial acceleration in reverse will be slower than that of my boat. That is actually an advantage. You can goose 'er in reverse - full bore - and it will be many seconds (elephants. Count 'em!) before she'll start to make sternway. But what WILL happen immediately, given that you have a right-handed prop, is that the stern will begin to "walk" to port. This is more pronounced at high RPM, so high RPM is what you want. You prolly have a roller-furling headsail or even two. Don't try to compel 'er head to turn to weather at low speed. You WILL lose that contest! This, too, in you posited situation, helps you rather than hinders you.

To get going, hang a scotsman on you starboard side about 5 feet aft of your stemhead. Slip her lines. The wind will hold you where you are for now. Lay your helm ALL THE WAY to STARBOARD. Engage reverse and goose 'er. When the stern has swung out far enuff that she lies at a 15 angle to the finger, she'll begin to make sternway, and the rudder will begin to counteract the sternwalk so she'll continue to move straight out from the finger at a 15 angle. When your mast is opposite the transom corner of your neighbour boat on your port side, but not before, lay the helm hard a-port. This will accentuate the sternwalk. Your sprit will sweep over the end of your finger while the scotsman protects her topsides. She'll make a curved track through the water which you stop by taking the RPM off her and laying the helm midships when she's gone through a total turn of 90. You'll now be moving on the stern-reach and you can steer her comfortably, remembering that the deflections need to be bigger than when making headway.

When you get to "B" you execute the same maneuvre to turn her, or you can "back and fill". Same at "C'. From there on, it's plain sailing :-)

Go out on a calm day and let you tender go, so you can use 'er as an ersatz dock. Practice, practice, practice the maneuvre I've described until you grow confident that you know PRECISELY how your boat will respond to what you do. Don't be practicing in your slip :-)

There is not one of us, I'll wager, that doesn't have to "feel our way" a bit when we first employ these sorts of "standard" maneuvers in a boat we are not familiar with, because every individual boat, even boats of the same type, has it's own individual response pattern.

So go out and practice :-)!

Cheers
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Old 13-03-2018, 10:44   #17
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

Your boat is light enough you should have a sculling oar. With turning strokes, it is possible to turn in place! I can spin around to get through tight corners.
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Old 13-03-2018, 11:40   #18
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

TrentePieds - thanks for the detailed description. You say to "hang a scotsman on you starboard side" What is a scotsman?
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Old 13-03-2018, 12:25   #19
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

the wind is your friend as you back out of the slip the stern will pivot to port being pushed by the wind when you are clear shift into forward and go.
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Old 13-03-2018, 12:38   #20
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

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Originally Posted by dmksails View Post
TrentePieds - thanks for the detailed description. You say to "hang a scotsman on you starboard side" What is a scotsman?


A Scotsman is a person from a small insignificant part of Britain. That should stir things up a little
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Old 13-03-2018, 12:39   #21
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

Untie (and stow) all the lines. The wind should hold you against the dock. You will need a person on the end of the dock to fend off as you back out straight. The wind will push the stern down, and the dock will keep the bow up. When the bow is at the end, have the dock hand give a mighty push of the bow up into the wind, then power turn into the wind before the bow falls off. In light winds this would be easy. In bigger winds its always going to be tough. There's no shame in waiting. Around here, the winds are light in the morning, and pick up at noon. If I don't leave my dock before the wind picks up, I just don't go. I'm usually alone.

Another alternative is to find a better dock at your marina and ask to be moved. I waited for years for a "head to wind" dock, but I was finally able to come and go with ease, singlehanded. I even posted a youtube video of me leaving my dock, alone, on a windy day. But I got too many negative comments from people who thought having no one at the helm (while I walked the boat to the end of the finger) was too dangerous...most likely people who have never been on a boat ever.

And if you feel like it...set up to record video so we can all see how it goes!
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Old 13-03-2018, 12:46   #22
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

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TrentePieds - thanks for the detailed description. You say to "hang a scotsman on you starboard side" What is a scotsman?
I think he means a big fat fender. What powerboaters call a bumper.
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Old 13-03-2018, 13:41   #23
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

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Originally Posted by dmksails View Post


I've a question on what the best approach is when leaving port. My boat is a 31-ft full keel sailboat (Tashiba-31). I've attached a drawing showing a scenario where wind is blowing across the dock. I'm the lower of the 2 boats shown. The path to the sea requires a couple of turns then goes down a long channel.

What I've done in the past is to back up channel A into B. At that point I usually struggle to get the bow pointed down channel B so I can go forward down B to the main channel.

I know I could back out of the slip with a springline that would pivot the bow up into the wind.

Other than using a springline, what would be my options for completing this operation in a safe, controlled manner?
I have almost exactly the same deal, the difference being that where you exit to the right up channel b I exit to the left. this is why you never take a slip where you have to make a left turn to enter it. ha. i'm guessing like me you didn't have the choice so here's how I deal with it. if your wind is as strong as mine good luck using a spring line to get the bow pointed into it and I've found it best to just back out of channel a. both the wind and prop walk in reverse will cause the bow to swing right backing out of the slip so just go with that. you have a tougher row to hoe once you get out of channel a, though, in that you're stuck getting the bow pointed the right way in channel b. again, prop walk and wind on the bow keeps the bow from swinging to the left to head out of the channel but it looks to me that if you can get a good head of steam up reversing out of channel a your rudder should bite enough to swing the bow to the left as you enter b but when doing this get to idle and completely out of reverse to eliminate prop walk.

that said, there's a maneuver every sailboat driver needs to master and that's slowly spinning the boat in her own length around her keel. in your case you could use this once you get into channel b. if you don't know, here's how;

you can only do this to the right.

bring the boat to a complete stop in the water, idle throttle, tranny in neutral. now turn the helm hard to starboard and leave it there. resist the temptation to move it until you've swung her a full 360 or as far as you need to go to get headed in the right direction.

trans into reverse and quickly a big burst of throttle but even before the boat starts to move get back to idle and into neutral. the bow will have swung appreciably to the right. don't worry about the hard over to starboard rudder. you didn't let the boat actually move.

now, quickly tranny to forward and another quick blast of power then back to idle and neutral. in reverse the bow moved right because of prop walk but here in forward it moved further right because of prop wash over the rudder and you still didn't let the boat actually move forward.

back to reverse with another blast from the throttle and then quickly back to idle and into neutral.

back to forward, another blast,

repeat as many times as necessary to get her pointy end pointed where you want to go. just keep in mind that with each burst of power you don't want the boat to actually move forward or backward or at least as little as possible so just a quick big blast on the throttle and then get back to idle/neutral before the boat can get moving. remember, that rudder is hard to starboard so you definitely don't want her to get up enough steam in reverse for that rudder to actually bite in swinging your bow back to the left.

practice in open water with no obstructions and you'll have it down in no time. good luck.
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Old 13-03-2018, 13:55   #24
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmksails View Post


I've a question on what the best approach is when leaving port. My boat is a 31-ft full keel sailboat (Tashiba-31). I've attached a drawing showing a scenario where wind is blowing across the dock. I'm the lower of the 2 boats shown. The path to the sea requires a couple of turns then goes down a long channel.

What I've done in the past is to back up channel A into B. At that point I usually struggle to get the bow pointed down channel B so I can go forward down B to the main channel.

I know I could back out of the slip with a springline that would pivot the bow up into the wind.

Other than using a springline, what would be my options for completing this operation in a safe, controlled manner?
I have almost exactly the same deal, the difference being that where you exit to the right up channel b I exit to the left. this is why you never take a slip where you have to make a left turn to enter it. ha. i'm guessing like me you didn't have the choice so here's how I deal with it. if your wind is as strong as mine good luck using a spring line to get the bow pointed into it and I've found it best to just back out of channel a. both the wind and prop walk in reverse will cause the bow to swing right backing out of the slip so just go with that. you have a tougher row to hoe once you get out of channel a, though, in that you're stuck getting the bow pointed the right way in channel b. again, prop walk and wind on the bow keeps the bow from swinging to the left to head out of the channel but it looks to me that if you can get a good head of steam up reversing out of channel a your rudder should bite enough to swing the bow to the left as you enter b but when doing this get to idle and completely out of reverse to eliminate prop walk.

that said, there's a maneuver every sailboat driver needs to master and that's slowly spinning the boat in her own length around her keel. in your case you could use this once you get into channel b. if you don't know, here's how;

you can only do this to the right.

bring the boat to a complete stop in the water, idle throttle, tranny in neutral. now turn the helm hard to starboard and leave it there. resist the temptation to move it until you've swung her a full 360 or as far as you need to go to get headed in the right direction.

trans into reverse and quickly a big burst of throttle but even before the boat starts to move get back to idle and into neutral. the bow will have swung appreciably to the right. don't worry about the hard over to starboard rudder. you didn't let the boat actually move.

now, quickly tranny to forward and another quick blast of power then back to idle and neutral. in reverse the bow moved right because of prop WALK but here in forward it moved further right because of prop WASH over the rudder and you still didn't let the boat actually move forward.

back to reverse with another blast from the throttle and then quickly back to idle and into neutral.

back to forward, another blast,

repeat as many times as necessary to get her pointy end pointed where you want to go. just keep in mind that with each burst of power you don't want the boat to actually move forward or backward or at least as little as possible so just a quick big blast on the throttle and then get back to idle/neutral before the boat can get moving. of course with practice you can go right through neutral and directly into forward or reverse but just make sure you're at idle rpm. because there will seem to be a whole bunch going on at once I say get back in neutral when you're learning and pause a moment to think through the next step. when it becomes natural then by all means move the throttle with one hand while the other does the shifting. a one lever system would be great here but I've got two and you may too. remember, that rudder is hard to starboard so you definitely don't want her to get up enough steam in reverse for that rudder to actually bite in swinging your bow back to the left.

practice in open water with no obstructions and you'll have it down in no time. good luck.
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Old 13-03-2018, 14:33   #25
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

Yes, in our local parlance a "scotsman" is a great big teardrop shaped fender. Around here they are usually red. I'm sure they are called that, cos when you squeeze 'em hard as you come alongside, they wail like a piper tuning his drones :-)

On the OP's boat I would go for a 2 foot diameter one to start with. Once you've found your courage to use sufficient helm and throttle as you maneuver, you can come down to a smaller one.

jrbogie sez you should be able to spin on a vertical axis that lies about midships. Thus my comment about the mast. As your stern goes to port, your bow will goto starboard about that axis. Thus the need for the scotsman for the bow will swing towards the finger.

This maneuver - spinning on her axis - I call "doing a pirouette". With a right-handed wheel, you can only do a clockwise pirouette. You cannot do a counter-clockwise one, so don't even bother to try. ALWAYS position yourself in the fairway so you have room for a pirouette! Have regard to "set" (effect of tide) and "drift" (effect of wind) as you do so. And remember that those god-forsaken roller-furls will ALWAYS drift her head off when least you want it :-)

Play with these thoughts a bit, and with the boat. Then see if there might be advantage in coming into fairway "A", as you return, making headway, and stopping by the fingers INLAND from your finger, and then BACKING the boat in to take advantage of the sternwalk to do so. If that'll work for you, you can depart without having to back at all and without "backing and filling",

TP
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Old 13-03-2018, 15:00   #26
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

Depending on the direction of the wind during the day, I will on occasion experience similar issues as the scenario you have illustrated. In this instance, the wind can be utilized in your favor since your boat will be pushed towards the finger dock and away from the adjoining boat located upwind and if you are bow to in your slip then your stern will fall away downwind to starboard as you back out of the slip. There being two primary hazard points of contact, first your bow making an angled contact with the adjoining boat that is upwind of yours when your stern falls away with the wind upon entering the channel and the second is the upwind corner of your finger dock. If you place a corner cushion or rolling wheel on the corner of your finger dock you will not need to be concerned about your boat contacting its starboard side on the sharp corner of the finger dock. [There have been times when I wish the adjoining boat had a rolling wheel on its aft corner so as to use said boat as a pivot and times when I wish my boat had such rolling wheel attached to its stern to aid fending off a neighbor's boat] If you back out with some authority initially then slow as your mast reaches the stern of the adjoining boat you should then allow your boat's stern to fall off with the wind and / or to power the stern downwind in reverse and then simply power forward and turn toward the middle of the channel going forward. If the wind is blowing hard leaving the slip becomes challenging and one may best use discretion and delay your departure until the wind slows. Of keen issue is whether the adjoining upwind boat's stern extends outward and beyond the end of your finger dock in which case that stern becomes a hazard to navigating upwind as your bow will desire to orient towards the end of your finger dock and the bow needs to be come into the wind and more so as to have the starboard side catch the wind to cause it to drift to port when you power forward. As long as neighboring boats do not extend beyond the end of the finger docks the finger docks make for excellent pivots and reasonably gentle bumpers. When boats utilize the full length of their slip or extend beyond the ends of the slips then bumping becomes damaging. I have hand pivoted boats out of slips using lines so as to have them faced bow to the wind on many occasions.

I would recommend that you consider docking your boat stern into the slip as exiting will be easier then backing out.

Also, one can pass a line from your starboard bow or to a midship cleat on the starboard side and then forward around your bow then alongside the port side of your boat and aft of the stern of the adjoining upwind boat to a cleat on the end of the upwind finger on the upwind side of the adjoining boat which line you will desire to take in the slack as you power astern exiting the slip. That line can be used to pull your bow towards the end of the upwind finger dock and keep the bow upwind until you manuever forward and steer toward the middle of the channel. Also helps if someone will push the bow off the end of the finger dock, recruit a bystander by offering a beer. Singlehanded manuevering in a marina with a strong wind is challenging, when it works it is a sight to admire, when it doesn't well it is not a sight to admire.

Now what I find really becomes exhilarating is entering a marina and docking into slips under sail power when the engine is not functioning, which manuevering does not allow for one to manuever towards upwind channels in the marina so this is limited to beam or downwind channels. I have experienced it to be considerably easier when head into a slip that is oriented to provide for entry bow to wind, albeit I once utilize a hove to manuever to drift back gently into a slip where the dock was downwind so that the boat ended up stern first in the slip. Sailing into a slip where the bow is faced downwind always tends to end with a thump unless I am able to catch a cleat and slow the boat with a line. Sailing into your downwind finger dock with a port wind is easier than with a starboard wind because again the wind pushes you into your finger dock and allows for relative ease to catch a cleat with a line to slow the boat before the bow bangs the pier. I would not attempt to enter a slip under sail power when the adjoining boat is downwind as one will drift into said adjoining boat and away from your finger dock. Exiting a marina under sail power is also exhilarating.
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Old 13-03-2018, 15:16   #27
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

A bow thruster could solve your problem.
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Old 14-03-2018, 01:22   #28
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

I would go backwards. It is something Australia does well.
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Old 14-03-2018, 03:36   #29
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Re: Scenario for leaving the dock

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that said, there's a maneuver every sailboat driver needs to master and that's slowly spinning the boat in her own length around her keel.

I've done this in light winds, but it is very difficult in heavy winds. What is the max wind speeds that you were able to do this with your boat? I have a full keel with cutaway forefoot and a max prop so reverse is very strong with good prop walk. I've found that prop walk is strongest when putting it into reverse with headway so with the boat stationary the prop walk seems to be less.
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