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Old 09-03-2016, 09:36   #91
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Re: Salvage tricks

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Unless I'm mistaken we know nothing at all about the Salver, fees, damage he incurred to his vessel or how difficult a job it was.
But I feel pretty sure the Master of the vessel had the right to refuse help if he didn't want it. I'm not so sure the anyone was being predatory, yes the possibility exists
We can be pretty confident that the owner of what appears to be a nice 70' vessel makes a runner...the bill was large. So yes we do know somethign about the fees. The exact dollar amount is unlikely to change the debate.

If someone is holding a gun to your head and asking for your wallet...technically, you have the right to refuse. While the salvager deserves payment for services, claiming the owner had the right to refuse is grossly misrepresenting the situation.
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Old 09-03-2016, 10:19   #92
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

So tell me how this is different than if I go to the Dr. and he tells me I have Disease, the treatment of which has been deemed as Experimental by my insurance and therefore not covered?
I can tell you one way, the owner of that 70' boat, ran her aground. I may have done no irresponsible act that caused the Disease, but pay up, or die?

I don't like it either, and even though my ole boat is paid for, this alone seems to be enough reason to keep her insured, as I'd suppose a Marine insurance Co has more experience and capability to fight this than I would alone.

We all take our chances, its all a calculated risk, you do not have to play the game, you don't have to leave the Marina.

On edit, bottom line of my post is you don't have the right to run, skip town on a bill, even if you think its an unfair bill. If you disagree, you stand your ground and fight, not run, running sure makes you look guilty in my opinion and was not a good thing to do.
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Old 09-03-2016, 10:29   #93
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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So tell me how this is different than if I go to the Dr. and he tells me I have Disease, the treatment of which has been deemed as Experimental by my insurance and therefore not covered?
I can tell you one way, the owner of that 70' boat, ran her aground. I may have done no irresponsible act that caused the Disease, but pay up, or die?

I don't like it either, and even though my ole boat is paid for, this alone seems to be enough reason to keep her insured, as I'd suppose a Marine insurance Co has more experience and capability to fight this than I would alone.

We all take our chances, its all a calculated risk, you do not have to play the game, you don't have to leave the Marina.
It's really quite similar except the presumption that an "experimental" procedure will keep you from dying. If it was certain or even highly likely to keep you from dying, it wouldn't be "experimental".

There is another difference. If you get the experimental treatment and fail to pay the bill, they hound your credit. They don't impound your body and sell it off to pay the bill.

Of course, the captain may have done nothing wrong either. Pick up a floating line that kills the engine and there may not be time to get the sails up before you get in trouble.

I do agree having good insurance is your best bet as they have experts who are better able to sort out an appropriate payment for services and as long as you aren't grossely negligent, it's the insurance companies bill to pay.
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:09   #94
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

I don't see that salvors' business model is quite the same as doctors'.

Don't most doctors at least work regular hours trying to help patients - rather than just hanging around waiting for that one desperate rich patient they can make a fortune from?

Aren't salvors often also treasure hunters? Another way of looking for the big score that will make their fortunes.
I understand some have been accused of encouraging rather than waiting for opportunity.

Naked greed and total lack of scruples must be part of the job description I think.

Doing a runner is as despicable, can't think of extenuating circumstances that would hold up but will wait and see.
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:38   #95
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

Aren't Boat US and Seatow, salvors, if your "hard aground"?
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:46   #96
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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Aren't Boat US and Seatow, salvors, if your "hard aground"?
I'm pretty sure you will find they are insurers who have prearranged deals with local salvors. The confusing part is they often allow the use of thier logos on the salvors boats.

Because of the repeat buisness aspect, Seatow is in a much better position to negotiate with the salvors. If the salvor thinks they can get a $20k payday for a couple hours work pulling your boat off a sandbar, they aren't going to be worried about repeat buisness. On the other hand, if Seatow sends them a dozen $1k tows per month, they will be hesitant to risk losing the Seatow account by abusing the situation.

PS: another issue with the "experimental" medical care analogy is it would be very unusual not to have at least a day or two to consider your options negotiate with the provider, argue with your insurance, etc....before making a choice. If your boat is a few minutes from washing up on a reef, you don't have time to consider your options and negotiate.
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:58   #97
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

Somethingīs not right here... Ely Blue with MMSI 247209930 is also registered in the Chinese Ship Register as a cargo ship,24 m long with a beam of 6 m.

She is NOT registered with ITU with a VHF callsign.

Have a look: http://www.chinaports.com/shipdata/247209930/view

"Curiouser and curiouser said Alice"

Tore
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Old 09-03-2016, 12:07   #98
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

AFAIK, the only requirement to obtain/register an MMSI is with your national authority, whoever that might be. Anything the ITU gets would just be passed along--and I'm not sure any nation is required to pass it along. Similarly, a Chinese ship registry would be obtaining data from somewhere else, with the usual good chance to getting it corrupted along the way.
When data gets passed around with no controls, it often gets scrambled. Send it halfway around the world and through a couple of language changes, arguably using the cheapest possible personnel and techniques, and one flier in one "alien" registry means nothing.
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Old 09-03-2016, 12:14   #99
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

hellosailor.

Your suggestions sounds a little to easy... not a friend of yours???
I definitely think itīs worth checking out.

Tore
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Old 09-03-2016, 12:22   #100
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

Tore-
Neither friend nor family. I just know how easily database information, or transcription information, get messed up. Lots of data gets keyboarded in China and the pacrim countries, by people who actually know no English. (Or in this case, Italian.) They may get $2/day to keyboard information for accountants, publishers, all sorts of things. And in theory they are more accurate because they don't know the language...but in practice, they also can't spot errors and have no proofreaders checking their work. I've seen database corruptions here in the US, sometimes massive ones. Sometimes all it takes is a blank field in one record, and then every record after it gets incorrectly sequenced and filled.


Easy? Damn right it is easy to screw up a database. Anyone who has worked with them has seen plenty of screw-ups over the years.


If that Chinese registry is half-competent, you should be able to notify them by email of the probable error, and get an answer back within 24 hours. If you can't do that...you can safely assume they are cheap, sloppy, and irresponsible.


Try this: Get a new phone number. See how it shows up on anyone else's callerID display. Dollars to donuts, it won't show YOUR name on the display for at least six months, often more than a year. (Unless you're calling a cellphone that pulls numbers from a contact list, rather than callerID databases.)


And that's from the largest telcos in the US.
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Old 09-03-2016, 13:37   #101
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

I'm feeling a little surprised that people are thinking the negotiations will take place over VHF. Generally the "rescuing party" takes the caller off to mobile phone and talks about it there.

Example, boat charterer calls home base, because the mainsail blew out. Home base says to bring the boat back to base and they'll fit a new one. Charter can do so, will lose two days of his charter to get back to where he wants to be. What he said, was, "we'll negotiate about compensation for my loss when I get in". Interestingly, the chartering home base, after a brief "Stand by" period, said that they would deliver the sail to him the next morning. No more was discussed on the VHF. --And this was at least 15 yrs. ago!, when Boatie's scenario might have all taken place here in Australia, too, but not now.

It makes you think you might have to say "my cell phone's not working now", having thought quickly.
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Old 09-03-2016, 13:46   #102
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

Ann-
Actually a cell phone is better, because you can easily record the entire call. Well, unless you have a US cell phone, where someone mysteriously has gone to great trouble to break that standard function in almost every phone. (Apple blocks it, but Android enables it in their OS, and somehow, only the US carriers provide phones where the Android OS is modified to block it.)
But there are often ways to make it possible, even on US phones.


Funny thing how people will tell you "We never could have told you that" and they go silent when you say "Yeah, you did. Do you want me to play the tape?".


Legality of recording a RADIO TRANSMISSION may vary with each venue. But as our own FCC gladly tells anyone, a "cell phone" is a computer and radio, and it is making a radio transmission, not a phone call. So various "call recording" laws do not apply, at least not here in the Colonies.
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Old 09-03-2016, 13:48   #103
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Aren't Boat US and Seatow, salvors, if your "hard aground"?
Boat US and Seatow pull people out of the mud in the ICW all the time and I haven't heard or read of any cases where they tried to claim salvage on the boat. As a matter of fact I see it all the time where people doing the Loop or the AICW run are advised to join one or the other specifically for the reason of being able to call them to tow you off when you go aground.
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Old 09-03-2016, 14:37   #104
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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Boat US and Seatow pull people out of the mud in the ICW all the time and I haven't heard or read of any cases where they tried to claim salvage on the boat. As a matter of fact I see it all the time where people doing the Loop or the AICW run are advised to join one or the other specifically for the reason of being able to call them to tow you off when you go aground.
I knew a guy who was softly grounded near high tide in the Newport river NC. The towing company came out and told them they had a problem and couldn't pull him off right now and would be back. They did come back six hours later at low tide then charged him for salvage because the boat was hard aground and squall was coming. He had towing insurance with the company, but they screwed him royally. He lost the boat because he could not pay the cost of the salvage.
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Old 10-03-2016, 05:36   #105
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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I knew a guy who was softly grounded near high tide in the Newport river NC. The towing company came out and told them they had a problem and couldn't pull him off right now and would be back. They did come back six hours later at low tide then charged him for salvage because the boat was hard aground and squall was coming. He had towing insurance with the company, but they screwed him royally. He lost the boat because he could not pay the cost of the salvage.
That's just mean...
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