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Old 09-03-2016, 04:31   #76
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Re: Salvage tricks

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
No he may not.. he may try but he will get laughed out of court.
...snipped..
But there'll always be the wanker who'll try
Thanks for that input, Boatman.

Based on that, it seems when you request a Tow, if the responder intends to later claim Salvage fees, he "must" declare that to you before commencing the job. He can't say nothing and later change his mind.

Also, if he responds to do the "tow", and does not declare intention to claim salvage, it seems not important whether your or his tow rope is used.
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Old 09-03-2016, 05:09   #77
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pirate Re: Salvage tricks

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Originally Posted by Marqus View Post
Thanks for that input, Boatman.

Based on that, it seems when you request a Tow, if the responder intends to later claim Salvage fees, he "must" declare that to you before commencing the job. He can't say nothing and later change his mind.

Also, if he responds to do the "tow", and does not declare intention to claim salvage, it seems not important whether your or his tow rope is used.
This is where one treads wary and watches out for split hairs.. one can be assistance and the other rescue.. its a fine line and hard to prove by the 'customer'.. get your ducks in a row.
Its your boat and your the Skipper.. act like one and call the shots.
Witnesses are useful as a Court in event of a 'Runner' will always find in favour of the Plaintiff.
Learnt this early in life when I took a car in for some work.. got a quote for what I wanted.. accepted and wandered off happy enough..
When I went back I found they had done 'extra's'.. I'd brought enough cash for the work so paid that and told the guys to invoice the rest and mail it to me.. when it arrived I sent a snotty letter back saying it was for work not requested.. He took me to court.. I lost.. with costs..
The Magistrate later took me aside (nice lady) and said that if I am ever in that position again pay.. then take Them to Court
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Old 09-03-2016, 06:09   #78
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Three words...'Lloyds Open Form'.

Which means what?

An antiquated idea for completely different boats. Which a boat owner or skipper signs under duress.
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Old 09-03-2016, 07:09   #79
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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Which means what?

An antiquated idea for completely different boats. Which a boat owner or skipper signs under duress.

I did a little reading on the subject of salvage as is I needed to, I still dodn't have a firm grasp though, seems answer is it depends too often.
It appears that Salvage was originally an English concept, and if there were dispute, it had to be disputed in England was my take, so I'm guessing that is his point?
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Old 09-03-2016, 07:39   #80
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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How much was this skipper charged?
If we are assuming the skipper just made a run for it, your earlier estimate of 10-15% of the boat value is probably a good assumption.

I'd be willing to bet, if it was a flat $1000, they would have just paid it given the size and cost of the boat in question. The exact amount isn't too important to the discussion. $20k or $200k is still a big number.
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:10   #81
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Re: Salvage tricks

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Opinions please: Hypothetical salvage scenario

...Entering a port via a channel, my yacht engine cuts out and will not restart.
I can set sail and tack carefully, but it will be risky so I drop anchor. Via VHF I contact the port and ask whether they can send someone to "Tow me in".
A workboat arrives, throws me a line and tows me in with his line.

**Question: Can the workboat operator claim Salvage?

**Supplementary question: Suppose in my VHF conversation I asked what it would cost to tow me in, was verbally quoted $150 and accepted. Afterwards, can the workboat operator change his mind, syaing the wind was coming up and claim Salvage instead of the $150?
1st ?: Assuming you are safely anchored, negotiate, write it down and make him sign before taking any action. If conditions are such that you can't do that, he may have a legitimately claim it's salvage. Still try to negotiate but if conditions are bad and your boat is at risk, he may have you by the nads.

2nd ?: Sure, but then the burden is on him to notify you of the change prior to initiating the salvage. If he shows up for a simple tow and it turns out to be a salvage situation, he announces over the VHF that the $150 tow is no longer valid as it's more complicated and your boat and crew are at risk. Do you still want assistance...poof it becomes a salvage if you don't or can't negotiate before work starts.

Witnesses (especially outside your and his crew) play a big role if there is disagreement regarding the situation. Also, if it makes it to court, the court can decide it was salvage but if conditions weren't that bad, they can give a low salvage payout...not much more than what a tow would run.

Bottom line, negotiate before work starts, get it in writting if at all possible if not, announce over the VHF what the agreement was to establish witnesses at the very least.

If conditions are such that you can't hold off long enough to negotiate, it probably falls under salvage.
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:14   #82
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Re: Salvage tricks

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
The Magistrate later took me aside (nice lady) and said that if I am ever in that position again pay.. then take Them to Court
UK may be different but I would never suggest paying for work that wasn't requested. The old possession is 9/10ths of the law comes into play. They have the money and the court is going to ask why you paid them for the work if you didn't agree to the work.

My guess is your issue was that you told them to invoice you for the remainder. Once you told them to invoice you, that could be taken as you agreeing that the work was legitimate, thus you owe on the bill.

(Boats are a little different as the law makes it far easier to impound a boat with a lien on it. Another of the 300-400yr old rules when a skipper could just slip out of port and chasing him down was often not practical.)
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:19   #83
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Re: Salvage tricks

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
This is where one treads wary and watches out for split hairs.. one can be assistance and the other rescue.. its a fine line and hard to prove by the 'customer'.. get your ducks in a row.
Its your boat and your the Skipper.. act like one and call the shots.
Witnesses are useful as a Court in event of a 'Runner' will always find in favour of the Plaintiff.
Learnt this early in life when I took a car in for some work.. got a quote for what I wanted.. accepted and wandered off happy enough..
When I went back I found they had done 'extra's'.. I'd brought enough cash for the work so paid that and told the guys to invoice the rest and mail it to me.. when it arrived I sent a snotty letter back saying it was for work not requested.. He took me to court.. I lost.. with costs..
The Magistrate later took me aside (nice lady) and said that if I am ever in that position again pay.. then take Them to Court
That's why here in MA we have a law specifically limiting the increase from an "estimated" amount to no more than 10%. If the shop finds add'l issues it has to communicate a new estimate and have it approved by the car owner. Some unscrupulous shops of course try to pull a fast one by having the customer sign a blank estimate form and not give them the carbon copy of that blank. But that's another story.

Lloyd's or no Lloyd's, we live in a different era than the 1700s. And the laws must be adjusted accordingly. While I have no sympathy for the absconding skipper I have as little sympathy for the predatory tower/salvager. Two wrongs never make it right.
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:39   #84
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Which means what?

An antiquated idea for completely different boats. Which a boat owner or skipper signs under duress.
If large slabs of cash are involved, as with this Italian boat, it means you are not going to get screwed.
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:45   #85
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Re: Salvage tricks

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
That's why here in MA we have a law specifically limiting the increase from an "estimated" amount to no more than 10%. If the shop finds add'l issues it has to communicate a new estimate and have it approved by the car owner. Some unscrupulous shops of course try to pull a fast one by having the customer sign a blank estimate form and not give them the carbon copy of that blank. But that's another story.

Lloyd's or no Lloyd's, we live in a different era than the 1700s. And the laws must be adjusted accordingly. While I have no sympathy for the absconding skipper I have as little sympathy for the predatory tower/salvager. Two wrongs never make it right.
I went to a MA shop that had a way around that. They had me sign the estimate, didn't provide me a copy, and when I came back it was jacked up $100 more. They just had added a line after the fact.
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:53   #86
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Re: Salvage tricks

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While I have no sympathy for the absconding skipper I have as little sympathy for the predatory tower/salvager. Two wrongs never make it right.

Unless I'm mistaken we know nothing at all about the Salver, fees, damage he incurred to his vessel or how difficult a job it was.
But I feel pretty sure the Master of the vessel had the right to refuse help if he didn't want it. I'm not so sure the anyone was being predatory, yes the possibility exists
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:54   #87
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

This was a very interesting thread for me and I learned quite a lot....thank you all.

I didn't understand salvage very well it seems, and my opinions about some things relating to this situation have changed a bit. It's really amazing how much there is to know, and how much trouble "not knowing" can yield you.
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:56   #88
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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a64-
Difference Between Towing and Salvage - Towing Services - BoatUS


"Historically and legally, salvage is any voluntary and successful rescue of a boat and/or its cargo from a peril at sea."


If you're out of gas, but the vessel is still crewed (not abandoned) and is in no danger, then all you need is a tow. If the same vessel is now slowly drifting within sight of Niagara Falls...it might need a salvage. Even if that only required the same tow rope.


But the captain still has the option of saying "No thanks, don't need it."

Did you read this link? It has some good info
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:00   #89
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Re: Salvage tricks

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Unless I'm mistaken we know nothing at all about the Salver, fees, damage he incurred to his vessel or how difficult a job it was.
But I feel pretty sure the Master of the vessel had the right to refuse help if he didn't want it. I'm not so sure the anyone was being predatory, yes the possibility exists
Since we have not heard from either/both sides I was simply addressing a general concern. I do not know if the skipper absconded or if the salver was predatory but the fact remains - that these tow situations are ripe for abuse, by both sides.
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:03   #90
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Re: Salvage tricks

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While I have no sympathy for the absconding skipper I have as little sympathy for the predatory tower/salvager. Two wrongs never make it right.
When falling into a precipice we take the outstretched hand.
Little do we think or realize that hand is reaching for our wallet.
Claiming salvage on a boat because you saved it, is immoral.
Asking for just compensation is fine.

Lets pretend the salvor asked for the hull value for the boat he "saved" I would run too.
Now lets pretend the salvor asked for $1000 plus damages to his boat. I would write the good man a cheque and shake his hand. Salvage is a business, and businesses cost money.

If the skipper of a 70' boat took off like lightning, the salvor was asking for the farm. The salvor has the law on his side, and could claim the full cost of the boat. If he was asking for a reasonable amount, He would publicly disclose his charges, when making this info public.
What we have here is a salvor with a million dollar payday sailing away fast.
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