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Old 08-03-2016, 12:12   #61
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pirate Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
a64-
Difference Between Towing and Salvage - Towing Services - BoatUS


"Historically and legally, salvage is any voluntary and successful rescue of a boat and/or its cargo from a peril at sea."


If you're out of gas, but the vessel is still crewed (not abandoned) and is in no danger, then all you need is a tow. If the same vessel is now slowly drifting within sight of Niagara Falls...it might need a salvage. Even if that only required the same tow rope.


But the captain still has the option of saying "No thanks, don't need it."
Funny enough whether it is/can be classed as a salvage is also dependent on whose line it is.. if you take their line they are entitled to claim salvage if they choose to.
Moral.. always carry a line suitable in length, strength and bridled for such an event..
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Old 08-03-2016, 12:13   #62
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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Funny enough whether it is/can be classed as a salvage is also dependent on whose line it is.. if you take their line they are entitled to claim salvage if they choose to.

Moral.. always carry a line suitable in length, strength and bridled for such an event..

That, is useful info.


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Old 08-03-2016, 12:17   #63
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
You. Don't. Know. He. Was. Running. Away.
Let's assume the first message posted isn't BS, then yes, he did a runner.

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
how fair is it in such situations to charge exorbitant amounts?
Guestimating salvage costs are around 10-15% of the yachts value, it wouldn't be all that bad in my case Might even be cheaper then a professional tow.

We don't know what he was charged in this case, nor if he can afford whatever he was or would have been charged. Nor if he might have insurance that would have paid for (part of) the costs.

But regardless - you have a choice. You can accept or decline any help offered for whatever reasons you want. Asking for help, accepting the help and then doing a runner ... no. Just no.
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Old 08-03-2016, 12:34   #64
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

"I thought too, salvage required"
Then too, it helps if the alleged captain of the boat, the guy who called for help, or at least talked to the guys offering help, knows wtf he is doing. Anyone in charge of a boat, especially one in that size and price class, should have some basic understanding of the difference between salvage and tow. And what salvage, and standard salvage contracts, will involve. And, yes, they should know that it makes a difference which end of who's rope is grabbed.
I'd note also that the initial report was that the salvor's boat was damaged while getting out to the grounded vessel. Salvage laws give that "excessive" amount to salvors because yes, they do risk their own lives and vessels, they don't just magically save the loss of another entire vessel. They are compensated for the risks--and damage--that they may take.


It may or may not be fair, but the rules are well published and long standing. Anyone who "boats" without knowing those rules, gee, they might be in for a rude surprise, huh? [sigh]


Sure, maybe the guy is just in a hurry to get home, he had a hot date, and he plans to mail a check back to the salvors, and to answer the local authorities by mail.


Kinda nice of the guy to skip town this way, if he did actually "skip town". Boat gets arrested, auctioneer makes a profit, new buyer gets a bargain, salvors get paid...I mean, in the long run? He's really helping the global economy, isn't he? :-)
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Old 08-03-2016, 12:42   #65
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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It may or may not be fair, but the rules are well published and long standing. Anyone who "boats" without knowing those rules, gee, they might be in for a rude surprise, huh? [sigh]


That pretty much sums it all up, imho.
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Old 08-03-2016, 12:56   #66
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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Perhaps, yes. Dang, what is going on with this world were so little compassion remains for anyone? Especially in the sailing community?

I am not some moon-eyed calf that does not know this world, but dang the amount of love, hell almost worship, for the dollar (or whatever local currency) is both frightening and sad.
You read the part about the salvage boat being damaged saving this guy's sorry behind, right? Where's the compassion for him? He risked his boat, took a hit and then gets stiffed. If the guy didn't want to pay he could have refused the help. That was his right, but to let the guy pull him off and then run really stinks.
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Old 08-03-2016, 14:03   #67
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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Let's assume the first message posted isn't BS, then yes, he did a runner..

If we are going to assume, let's assume the guy had a schedule to keep and will send a check once he reaches his next port. End of thread.


Guestimating salvage costs are around 10-15% of the yachts value, it wouldn't be all that bad in my case Might even be cheaper then a professional tow.

We don't know what he was charged in this case, nor if he can afford whatever he was or would have been charged. Nor if he might have insurance that would have paid for (part of) the costs.

But regardless - you have a choice. You can accept or decline any help offered for whatever reasons you want. Asking for help, accepting the help and then doing a runner ... no. Just no.
The contentiuos part of salvage has always been the fact that the boat owner is negotiating under duress. The tow company likely has someone who understands and is thinking in terms of salvage rights vs your average owner who is just trying to keep his boat afloat. Salvage is a bit different because goverments want to encourage voluntary assitance but in Contract Law, courts will often set aside a contract negotiated under duress.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the tow company should get nothing but that there is a very good likelihood that the salvage system can encourage inappropriate behavior by being draconian.
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Old 08-03-2016, 20:56   #68
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Re: Salvage tricks

Opinions please: Hypothetical salvage scenario

...Entering a port via a channel, my yacht engine cuts out and will not restart.
I can set sail and tack carefully, but it will be risky so I drop anchor. Via VHF I contact the port and ask whether they can send someone to "Tow me in".
A workboat arrives, throws me a line and tows me in with his line.

**Question: Can the workboat operator claim Salvage?

**Supplementary question: Suppose in my VHF conversation I asked what it would cost to tow me in, was verbally quoted $150 and accepted. Afterwards, can the workboat operator change his mind, syaing the wind was coming up and claim Salvage instead of the $150?
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Old 08-03-2016, 21:18   #69
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
The contentiuos part of salvage has always been the fact that the boat owner is negotiating under duress. The tow company likely has someone who understands and is thinking in terms of salvage rights vs your average owner who is just trying to keep his boat afloat. Salvage is a bit different because goverments want to encourage voluntary assitance but in Contract Law, courts will often set aside a contract negotiated under duress.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the tow company should get nothing but that there is a very good likelihood that the salvage system can encourage inappropriate behavior by being draconian.
Very well put sir!
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Old 08-03-2016, 21:43   #70
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Re: Salvage tricks

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Originally Posted by Marqus View Post
Opinions please: Hypothetical salvage scenario

...Entering a port via a channel, my yacht engine cuts out and will not restart.
I can set sail and tack carefully, but it will be risky so I drop anchor. Via VHF I contact the port and ask whether they can send someone to "Tow me in".
A workboat arrives, throws me a line and tows me in with his line.

**Question: Can the workboat operator claim Salvage?

**Supplementary question: Suppose in my VHF conversation I asked what it would cost to tow me in, was verbally quoted $150 and accepted. Afterwards, can the workboat operator change his mind, syaing the wind was coming up and claim Salvage instead of the $150?
He can claim ANYTHING he wants to. (They tend to claim what they feel he can get away with) If he is a scumbag he will probably claim salvage. If he can get possession and lock you out of your boat then he has a ton of leverage. Then will intimidate with whatever leverage he has. This is what most “salvager’s” do then negotiate a settlement with you or your insurance co. To legally do a salvage claim they must prove the peril, prove the work performed and (in Fl. $400) pay for the court fee’s to file for and attain a salvage claim. Then to have the US marshals confiscate the boat is another roughly $3500 fee.
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Old 08-03-2016, 21:49   #71
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
The contentiuos part of salvage has always been the fact that the boat owner is negotiating under duress. The tow company likely has someone who understands and is thinking in terms of salvage rights vs your average owner who is just trying to keep his boat afloat. Salvage is a bit different because goverments want to encourage voluntary assitance but in Contract Law, courts will often set aside a contract negotiated under duress.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the tow company should get nothing but that there is a very good likelihood that the salvage system can encourage inappropriate behavior by being draconian.
Yes, I agree 100%
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Old 08-03-2016, 23:00   #72
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

Three words...'Lloyds Open Form'.
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Old 09-03-2016, 00:04   #73
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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I don't think anyone is suggesting the tow company should get nothing but that there is a very good likelihood that the salvage system can encourage inappropriate behavior by being draconian.
How much was this skipper charged?
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Old 09-03-2016, 02:03   #74
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pirate Re: Salvage tricks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marqus View Post
Opinions please: Hypothetical salvage scenario

...Entering a port via a channel, my yacht engine cuts out and will not restart.
I can set sail and tack carefully, but it will be risky so I drop anchor. Via VHF I contact the port and ask whether they can send someone to "Tow me in".
A workboat arrives, throws me a line and tows me in with his line.

**Question: Can the workboat operator claim Salvage?

No.. not unless he's said he intends to.. an unmanned vessel is however a free lunch.
**Supplementary question: Suppose in my VHF conversation I asked what it would cost to tow me in, was verbally quoted $150 and accepted. Afterwards, can the workboat operator change his mind, syaing the wind was coming up and claim Salvage instead of the $150?
No he may not.. he may try but he will get laughed out of court.
Usually the initial contact is by VHF ch16 Pan Pan Pan.. this gets all us nosey bugga's ears pricking up and we all switch over to the working channel to listen in (sailors are like that) so any verbal agreement is heard by all and sundry.. and all the 'Rescue boat' can legally claim is the agreed sum.
Any damage caused to the tow boat should be covered by his insurance as.. if it is a work boat damage is usually down to bad boat handling and proceedures.. there's some crap drivers out there and that includes the RNLI some of whom get gung ho and flash when there's a few hundred spectators
If I call for a tow in and a boat appears to assist.. my first question is 'How Much.?'.. I can then refuse or accept.. if its a free tow.. I have no legal liability for any damage to his vessel as a result.. and he has no legal liability for any damage to mine..
However.. if I have agreed to a fee for the operation I do have a legal obligation to pay the agreed fee.. but am under no obligation to compensate for damage to the rescue boat.
If you have agreed a price.. that's your fault.. and legally binding.. if the rescue has accepted the contract and damages his boat.. that's his fault.. you are not liable for his bad seamanship but he can be liable for gross negligence.. its a double edged sword.
Whinge all you want but.. another man should not have to suffer as a result of your own Personal Stupidity..
But there'll always be the wanker who'll try
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Old 09-03-2016, 03:23   #75
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Re: Salvaged yacht does a runner...

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Three words...'Lloyds Open Form'.
Yep.

All the necessaries (including the form) can be downloaded from here:

https://www.lloyds.com/the-market/to...-open-form-lof

Read them, print them out, keep them on board in a folder for instant reference, etc (hopefully you won't need them but you may come across someone that does).

Good points valhalla360 and others.
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