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Old 10-08-2015, 06:26   #61
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

I think everyone had as much right to be on the water as I do. I've been run into by other other boaters, including the Coast Guard. More than a few times I've had strangers approach me ashore with some variation of, "I watched you come in to the harbor and liked the way you handled your boat. I'd like to buy you a drink",or, "I knew I couldn't do anything helpful. I hope you don't mind that I took video". To an overgrown boy/man sailor, these were most satisfying compliments. To me sailing has always been like making art that leaves no record;just self satisfying. When someone else notices, all the better. 'Course, there's always some guy who is the"Get off my lawn you hoodlums ",type. Of course also, if you screw up, you have to take responsibility, so you have to have confidence and a vessel that isn't so overloaded it can't get out of its own way. I've always sailed as though my boats didn't have an engine. .Read Adlard Coles. All the way through. .When keeping your on board household systems in good working order took preminence over keeping your wood hull in good shape and understanding how it was constructed, boating went through a sea change and so did seafarers. But, the RV sailor has as much right on the water as anyone. We don't all have to be of the same mindset.
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Old 10-08-2015, 06:41   #62
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

jreiter... this has nothing to do with people having the right to be on the water... the "commons" so to speak. This is not about having and honing and practicing your boat handling skills. This is about acting prudently when operating a vessel in a "crowded" anchorage or mooring field where your operation may lead to accident, property damage or personal injury or both. And why do these fellas feel the need to do this? FUN... If there was ever a stupid reason do operate a vessel where you put others at risk - it's "FUN", ego and so showmanship. Put yourself at risk for fun... out others at risk who consent to the risk for fun... This sort of thing is nothing but arrogance and indifference. It's the same sort of arrogance and indifference seen in those who blast loud music from their boats... because... it's fun and they like it.

WOW.. just WOW...

Frankly I am surprised that someone such as Evans would find this practice acceptable.
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Old 10-08-2015, 06:42   #63
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

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put innocent bystanders at any risk.
WTF . . . what a hypothetical strawman argument. I have never ever come close to hitting a swimmer or kayaker. And I take full responsibility for my actions. You don't need to frown at me because of some near zero risk that you perceive. I would very politely suggest you may well be seeing a risk because you don't understand it.

Really how many sail boats anchoring or mooring under sail can you document that have injured 'innocent bystanders'. If they have any idea what they are doing at all, in the kind of circumstances we are talking about, they will usually be travelling really slowly (I like about 2 kts if it is possible in the conditions). I would honestly suspect way way more power boats (including sail boats under power) have caused problems.

As to the rest of your strawman arguments . . . we are all (including the jet skis, ski boats and other power boats) responsible for the effects of our wakes. Edit, just as we are responsible for our sound effects (your loud music). Bicycles lane splitting and weaving in traffic is illegal in most places in the USA (except California and Nebraska).

"Frankly I am surprised that someone such as Evans would find this practice acceptable."

Well, I find skilled anchoring or mooring under sail to not only be acceptable but laudable. . . . something to strive for, something to enjoy and share.

As has been mentioned, we have not defined 'crowded', but sometime you should watch the 100' engineless schooners sail into and out of inner camden harbour (which they do basically every day all summer) and have a chat with one of their skippers.
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Old 10-08-2015, 06:44   #64
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

1. The biker in your analogy is not enroute to his mooring so there isn't an actual purpose to his actions.
2. As has been pointed out the exact definition of a crowded anchorage has not been spelled out so how can any type of a blanket statement be made about the relative safety of such an entry? I would prefer to hope that each skipper had the right and the judgement needed to make a safe call based on his/her skills, the boat, the conditions etc.
3. Yes is sad that the art of sailing is dying. You can't learn what you are not allowed to practice. At what point in time did it suddenly become unnatural and even dangerous for a sailboat to be under sail? Some sailboats btw handle quite poorly under power...
4. A boat sailing to her mooring isn't going to be throwing spray, a big wake or covering your boat in exhaust fumes so I don't think that the jet ski analogy is a very good one.
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I am sure the bikers weaving through traffic are pretty skilled and having fun. That is not the point of some of the comments which find this sailing in crowded anchorages at times not very prudent. The issue for me is how crowded, what the conditions are and so forth. These are judgment calls. I don't know anyone who would approve of bikers weaving through rush hour traffic where some motorists might swerve, react and cause an accident when the biker long gone.

There is nothing sad about this thread and those who argue for prudence. There are plenty of locations to sharpen one's skills and not put innocent bystanders at any risk. For example racers can play all the dancing games they wish because that is expected somewhat... part of their sport.

Using anchored and moored boats as obstacles on a sailing course for the fun of it... may sharpen skills but it can lead to accidents and involve boats, swimmers, kayackers etc. which did not expect to be slammed into.

What I find troubling is the bravado attitude is used to make the prudent sailors seem like spoil sports and old curmudgeons.

I wonder how these crafty sailors feel about jet skiis racing around through an anchorage using it as an obstacle course... because it's fun and hones their get skiing skills? or even boats kicking up a big waking and causing their boat to rock and have their dinner end up in their lap???

Sailing is to me more about a "clean wake" not about having super precision boat handling skills.
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Old 10-08-2015, 06:46   #65
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

Do it all the time (30 footer).. jib down -main only- retrieve the mooring as you would with a mob, beam reach two boatlengths downwind of the mooring until directly downwind, then head up- the boat stops at the bouy. Not sure I would want to try it on a long keel boat though.
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Old 10-08-2015, 06:47   #66
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

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This is about acting prudently when operating a vessel in a "crowded" anchorage or mooring field where your operation may lead to accident, property damage or personal injury or both. And why do these fellas feel the need to do this? FUN... If there was ever a stupid reason do operate a vessel where you put others at risk - it's "FUN", ego and so showmanship. Put yourself at risk for fun... out others at risk who consent to the risk for fun... This sort of thing is nothing but arrogance and indifference.
You have just described personal watercraft/seadoos/jetskis
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Old 10-08-2015, 07:03   #67
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

Evans,
I don't have statistics and neither do you! What I do know is the 99.999% of sailors with motors do NOT sail on, off or through crowded anchorages with lots of water activity" and they don't because it would be imprudent.

Frankly your attitude is arrogant and self serving and very disappointing. You seem to think about your own selfish needs in this thread.

Having good boat handling skills is something all sailors should and most do aspire to. Using anchoring and mooring fields to hone and practice them is not the place to do this PERIOD.

Do sail boats under power have accidents in crowded mooring and anchoring field... you betcha. And they probably have more than vessels without power because there are more of them. But again without statistics... your anecdotal experience means nothing.

Finally... you can... and I have practiced sailing to and from an anchor in a none crowded or occupied by boats etc. location.

I have also thought about what I would do if the motor died when I was moving through an anchorage... sometimes with just the main up. I single hand and probably would try to go down wind behind the moored boats and drop the hook... using the cockpit remote for the windlass. It would never cross my mind to try to weave through a large crowded field to my mooring or find a spot to drop the hook.

Usually when I anchor I either know the anchorage or investigate the depths around the spot which looks like I would have adequate swing room with respect to the tides and the expected winds.

Please don't use my home part to play your games...

Thank you!
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Old 10-08-2015, 07:12   #68
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

Evans,

I have seen the Camden and Maine Schooners many times. They usually have a straight shot from the harbor entrance past Curtis Island down the fairway to the dock. I've seen other tall ships come to dock but they do not weave about as in an obstacle course to their mooring ball or anchoring location as you claim to do.

Your arguments are self serving and specious... and I am sorry to say that in this thread you are on the wrong side.
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Old 10-08-2015, 07:20   #69
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

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Evans,
I don't have statistics and neither do you!

Well, actually I do. Beth is head of loss prevention at BoatUS and is in charge of analyzing all their claims data. They had zero cases the past 5 years. Sure it has probably happened sometime somewhere but it is a trivial risk you are all up in arms about.


What I do know is the 99.999% of sailors with motors do NOT sail on, off or through crowded anchorages with lots of water activity" and they don't because it would be imprudent.

You are saying you know what is in the mind of all other sailors? hmmm . . . are you god?

Frankly your attitude is arrogant and self serving and very disappointing. You seem to think about your own selfish needs in this thread.

Internet rule - when losing an argument: Always attack the man. great job. And you are wrong in any case . . as I have quit sailing . . . I no longer have any 'selfish needs' here . . . I am just sad for the community and sport I loved.

Using anchoring and mooring fields to hone and practice them is not the place to do this PERIOD.

hmmm . . . . "PERIOD" really - you don't see why anyone would do it ever - and think most of the CCA, Rod Stevens, Lin & Larry, and the maine schooners are all foolish irrational dangerous sailors?
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Old 10-08-2015, 07:29   #70
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

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Originally Posted by Lokiyawl View Post
2. As has been pointed out the exact definition of a crowded anchorage has not been spelled out so how can any type of a blanket statement be made about the relative safety of such an entry? I would prefer to hope that each skipper had the right and the judgement needed to make a safe call based on his/her skills, the boat, the conditions etc.

James
To be clear, this was my reference point when I started this thread:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Aval...P7OPKpFIQ4M%3A

Hence my analogy of the trick shot artist - one who can shoot the flame off a candle or a cigarette out of the mouth of his assistant with a firearm, or a knife thrower who outlines the silhouette of his assistant strapped to a spinning wheel while blindfolded.

I would never try it but I respect the skill required and enjoy watching the show.

And yes, I understand the assistant is paid to take the risk while an innocent boat owner in a crowded anchorage is not.
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Old 10-08-2015, 07:34   #71
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

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I greatly admire people who have the skill and confidence to handle their boat under sail without power. It demonstrates a high level of learned seamanship.

I also admire people with the good judgement to know when it is safe for them and their boat to sail into an anchorage or mooring field and when it is unsafe. Keeping their boat and the boats around them safe is one good measure of seamanship.


S/V B'Shert

First time I've quoted myself. Okay kids, time to go out and play.


S/V B'Shert
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Old 10-08-2015, 07:35   #72
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

For reference, this is the inner camden harbour which the schooners sail in and out of.

Click image for larger version

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and this is southport where the Ed Gaynor (my CCA mentor) sailed into and out of his slip and mooring

Click image for larger version

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Old 10-08-2015, 07:43   #73
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

Evans,

I don't know about internet rules... And I don't know about the 3rd hand reference to insurance stats of BoatUS related to accident claims in anchorages. NB that most claims are too small to bring to the insurance company and are settled without getting sureties involved.

Since you quit sailing then I don't have to be concerned about you practicing your weaving skills near my moored or anchored boat . :-)

Obviously you didn't read my posts... I explained that some sailors have no choice to sail through a crowded anchorage or mooring field... but when they have a choice to use their motor... the prudent thing is to use the motor.

And again Camden schooners do not weave through crowded mooring fields but sail down a clear fair way / channel to the dock.

Finally, I am not up in arms about this. I am noting what I think is prudent and considerate behavior of sailors in crowded anchorages... which I hold strong beliefs about and my views seems to be in the majority because I don't see many yachts sailing in crowded anchorages. But perhaps most sailors are not as skilled in boat handling as you are??? ;-)
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Old 10-08-2015, 07:43   #74
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

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For reference, this is the inner camden harbour which the schooners sail in and out of.

Attachment 107055

and this is southport where the Ed Gaynor (my CCA mentor) sailed into and out of his slip and mooring

Attachment 107056
hahahaha and this proves what?
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Old 10-08-2015, 08:00   #75
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Re: Sailing in and out of a crowded mooring field

Practicing when there are consequences provides a level of preparation that cannot come without having those consequences in place. To be specific: to practice single-handing or to practice mooring under sail with no other boats around is not going to provide the same preparation for motor failure as doing so in a crowded mooring field. There are no close calls to sweat over and get the adrenaline running and it is those close calls that make you dwell over the experience and create the indelible memories that serve when things actually go wrong. Honing these skills is the essence of seamanship.
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