Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-08-2015, 16:51   #16
Registered User
 
chris mac's Avatar

Join Date: May 2015
Location: edmonton alberta
Boat: 1980 san juan 7.7
Posts: 428
Re: Sailing adventure

Every body has lines they are willing to cross. I speed, but only 10 kmh over. Still illegal but within my tolerance. I guess I reacted harsh because running out on a debt or bill is well past my tolerance. Maybe because I own a business and have had people try to skip on the bill.
__________________

__________________
chris mac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 17:13   #17
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Sailing adventure

Sailing "logs" and blogs generally bore me to tears, but I had to go back and read the whole enchilada in order to understand how the word 'port' was being used by the op. No way to get around it. Port is used in lieu of marina...

Gotta give the Op credit for paying twice though. Still, I wonder if they side tied to fuel docks o-night or grabbed a slip? Probably fuel docks, and who at one time or another hasn't arrived late and left early without seeing nary a soul? Who has never had a tight itinerary that precluded waiting for the 'harbour master' to arrive at 08:00? If you havent yet, someday...

Regarding port fees in the true meaning of the word, encountered when sailing between different countries, I won't be surprised if - given the ever increasing rates - if ducking payment someday becomes sport.

Anyway, kudos to the Op for getting to where they needed to go. Sorry about the rudder damage and hope if you had a deductible on the $1,600 towing fee it wasn't too much.

Thanks for sharing.
__________________

__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 17:53   #18
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Sailing adventure

I think there is room for a grey area when it comes to paying the bill. If you tie up in a slip, leave skid marks in the can, plug into shore power then shower your dog, you're clearly on the hook for the fee.

If you stop in at the gas dock, top up with 400 litres of diesel, buy ice and pay $30 for a pump out, and carry on your merry way, no marina manager in his right mind will try to charge you for moorage.

So clearly there is a grey area.

What if you duck in for a couple of hours between 1 and 3 am, tie up to a concrete and rebar wall while a front passes, then head straight back out? I don't think I'd be tracking down the marina manager in his house trying to find out what the fee for the night is.

I'm not saying the OP was right to do what he did, but if he treaded lightly, didn't use any of the facilities aside from the wear and tear on a couple of cleats for 5 or 6 hours? Like Mac said above, tolerances will vary some from one person to the next.

I think the unfortunate thing about the OP that got several of you riled up, was his stated intent to deceive. Its that fact that allows me to ride the fence on this one so easily. I'm seeing both points of view quite nicely.

That and the fact that I have never seen what I would truly call a cheap Beneteau 38, even well used they will generally cost $40 000 and up. If he'd said a Grampian 23 or an old Tanzer I'd be more inclined to sympathy.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 18:06   #19
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,890
Re: Sailing adventure

What's the difference between a Canadian and a canoe?.........

Canoe's tip!

Seriously..... The OP is new.....he was on a delivery schedule..... arriving late... leaving early.... and thought he would share a financial bonus of that schedule as an introductory gift.

Not interested in judging as it is some thing akin to buying and then (when they get old) purposely destroying Sears Craftsman tools to get free new ones.

We all rationalize our decisions.
__________________
Pelagic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2015, 00:45   #20
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,939
Images: 1
Re: Sailing adventure

I really don't have a lot of sympathy for the OP. He continually notes that they left early to "beat the harbourmaster".

Unless he is very poor in his english communication skills - that says they purposely got up early and left to avoid paying for their stay in the marina.

Sorry - simply not on. Dishonorable. Not something I would want my kids seeing me do.

I've arrived late and had to leave very early. I also called the harbourmaster during the day and asked how I could send him the money.

What goes around comes around - and as Stu noted, "ain't karma a bitch"
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2015, 01:34   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: NC
Boat: 1974 Morgan Out Island 33
Posts: 552
Re: Sailing adventure

Sadly, on his 6th post, getting royally flamed, deserved or not, I hope he is not so embarrassed that he will come back.

A gentler, rather less judgmental, yet still instructive "ya might want to not do that" (with civil instruction about the reasons) would be entirely in order.

Some managed that and I salute you.
__________________
Order tends to Chaos. On the ocean it happens twice as fast.
jwcolby54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2015, 07:08   #22
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Sailing adventure

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
I think there is room for a grey area when it comes to paying the bill. If you tie up in a slip, leave skid marks in the can, plug into shore power then shower your dog, you're clearly on the hook for the fee.
Right. But what if you arrive at 20:00, nobody who works at the marina is around and everything is locked down? No ameneties are available to you at all. Come 08:00 you gonna pay a full hit for the pared down privelege of using a couple of cleats for the night? You never left the boat.

Quote:
If you stop in at the gas dock, top up with 400 litres of diesel, buy ice and pay $30 for a pump out, and carry on your merry way, no marina manager in his right mind will try to charge you for moorage.
Smart thing to do is say you arrived early and need some fuel. So what if, like in most cases, your tank will only take half a gallon? For criminy sake, it's a sailboat after all and do any of us really know how much we've used since the last time we topped up? O.k, buy a cup of coffee and a donut to appease your sense of guilt.

Quote:
So clearly there is a grey area.

What if you duck in for a couple of hours between 1 and 3 am, tie up to a concrete and rebar wall while a front passes, then head straight back out? I don't think I'd be tracking down the marina manager in his house trying to find out what the fee for the night is.

I'm not saying the OP was right to do what he did, but if he treaded lightly, didn't use any of the facilities aside from the wear and tear on a couple of cleats for 5 or 6 hours? Like Mac said above, tolerances will vary some from one person to the next.

I think the unfortunate thing about the OP that got several of you riled up, was his stated intent to deceive. Its that fact that allows me to ride the fence on this one so easily. I'm seeing both points of view quite nicely.
So, knowing you've been unable to use any amenities will your intent be to pay the full fee, try to negotiate a compromise or leave without paying anything? Except that is, for a half gallon of fuel, coffee and a donut?

Quote:
That and the fact that I have never seen what I would truly call a cheap Beneteau 38, even well used they will generally cost $40 000 and up. If he'd said a Grampian 23 or an old Tanzer I'd be more inclined to sympathy.
What's the diff? No big deal either way. It's a matter of value received for money spent...


Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app[/QUOTE]
__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2015, 07:33   #23
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Sailing adventure

Wrong, I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. I was illustrating that the decision to track down the harbour master and hand over your doe isn't always 100% black and white- I think you're agreeing with me?

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2015, 07:34   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Boat: Shopping
Posts: 426
Re: Sailing adventure

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
So clearly there is a grey area.
Sorry, there is no grey, absent an emergency.

You're using someone else's property, that the property owner spent/is spending a lot of money on. The property owner gets to make the rules, not you. If you don't like the rules, go somewhere else.

If it's inconvenient to wait around for someone to pay, too bad.

If you don't want to pay to dock, that's what anchors are for.
__________________
Cottontop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2015, 07:41   #25
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Sailing adventure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cottontop View Post
Sorry, there is no grey, absent an emergency.

You're using someone else's property, that the property owner spent/is spending a lot of money on. The property owner gets to make the rules, not you. If you don't like the rules, go somewhere else.

If it's inconvenient to wait around for someone to pay, too bad.

If you don't want to pay to dock, that's what anchors are for.
So if you stop in for 20 minutes to grab fuel you insist on paying $1.35 a foot for moorage? You throw a line on a bollard in a commercial port for 40 minutes while you wait for a front to pass, you track down the port operator and insist on paying? I call BS. For clarity- that means I don't believe you.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2015, 08:01   #26
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,939
Images: 1
Re: Sailing adventure

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
So if you stop in for 20 minutes to grab fuel you insist on paying $1.35 a foot for moorage? You throw a line on a bollard in a commercial port for 40 minutes while you wait for a front to pass, you track down the port operator and insist on paying? I call BS. For clarity- that means I don't believe you.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Well I've never heard of a marina wanting to charge for a night when I stoppd to tank or pump out for that matter. Those are transient stops.

Grabbing a bolard for hour while waiting for a front to pass? Usually the marinas are fine with this.

Staying the night? You pay.

For me it's easy. If my kids were with me, what would I like them to learn from my behavior? Then I act accordingly.

An alternative to this discussion is to just go ask the harbourmaster (you do have to wait until he's in, of course)
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2015, 08:18   #27
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Sailing adventure

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Well I've never heard of a marina wanting to charge for a night when I stoppd to tank or pump out for that matter. Those are transient stops.

Grabbing a bolard for hour while waiting for a front to pass? Usually the marinas are fine with this.

Staying the night? You pay.

For me it's easy. If my kids were with me, what would I like them to learn from my behavior? Then I act accordingly.

An alternative to this discussion is to just go ask the harbourmaster (you do have to wait until he's in, of course)
I agree with you 100% the op should have paid if he over nighted. I do not dispute that.

However, Cottontop clearly stated there is no grey area, grabbing a bollard is a grey area.

IMO the op was not in the grey area, the dividing line being illustrated with his stated intent to dodge the fee. That's how we learn, we explore the boundaries of the grey area until we find a balance between ethical behaviour, affordability, excitement and safety.

I'm not trying to encourage anybody to dodge fees, I'm just suggesting that tempering some of the judgement might be reasonable. He made an error in judgement, but the world isn't as black and white as Cotton suggests, and we all make errors in judgement some times, I know I do. This error in judgement hardly seems severe enough to flame the poor guy right off the forum.

Your approach seems reasonable to me. You suggested he could wire payment to the harbour master. I think my recommendations were reasonable too, anchor, find designated free moorage, join a club with reciprocal rights.






Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2015, 08:50   #28
Registered User
 
NOLA_sailing's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Orleans, LA
Boat: Catalina 30 Tall Rig
Posts: 234
Re: Sailing adventure

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
He continually notes that they left early to "beat the harbourmaster".
Yahtzee (Yachtsee?). The "grey area" argument (which I agree does in fact very much exist) is irrelevant when the evasive actions are narrated with a sense of accomplishment and a bit of pride; for several consecutive nights. OP even takes length at one point to educate those who may not be privy the terminology of his gimmicks. The tone of the text just does not reconcile with a grey area scenario.
__________________
NOLA_sailing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2015, 08:58   #29
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,465
Re: Sailing adventure

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
So if you stop in for 20 minutes to grab fuel you insist on paying $1.35 a foot for moorage? You throw a line on a bollard in a commercial port for 40 minutes while you wait for a front to pass, you track down the port operator and insist on paying? I call BS. For clarity- that means I don't believe you.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
He (Cottontop) doesn't have a boat yet. He's just practicing up for boat ownership by getting into arguments on CF.

He's telling you what he thinks he might do in that situation when he gets a boat.
__________________
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2015, 09:03   #30
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Sailing adventure

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA_sailing View Post
Yahtzee (Yachtsee?). The "grey area" argument (which I agree does in fact very much exist) is irrelevant when the evasive actions are narrated with a sense of accomplishment and a bit of pride; for several consecutive nights. OP even takes length at one point to educate those who may not be privy the terminology of his gimmicks. The tone of the text just does not reconcile with a grey area scenario.
I agree, I have stated in every one of my posts that I believe when the OP stated his intent was to deceive, he was beyond the boundaries of the grey area. I was just illustrating that, in spite of claims to the contrary, a grey area does in fact exist and a lack of experience- or prior learning can put any one of us beyond the boundaries.

If the op is still reading he now knows he has exceeded the boundaries as defined by the community and probably the law and will hopefully not do it again, we've even provided him with alternative strategies should he find himself in the position again.

I don't really think that makes him a bad person and I'm not prepared to judge him as such.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________

__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sail, sailing

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Looking for Sailing Adventure Books bigwhyte The Library 140 03-08-2013 12:33
Sailing / Adventure Books for Kids? Franco The Library 13 11-06-2009 03:12
zen buddhist ashram sailing adventure for those serious about not only the physica absolution Crew Archives 14 07-05-2009 09:30



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:29.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.