Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-08-2009, 12:13   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South of St. Louis
Boat: not much yet
Posts: 170
Sailing a Lateen Rig

I still can't get anything like decent upwind out of this little Snark. A guy that knows sailing pulled up next to me and commented that I was sheeted in too far for the angle I was sailing. I agree, but I was running in the slot between where the sail began to luff in either direction. 60 degrees off the wind is about right I think, and that takes good steady wind. How to get better performance to windward?
__________________

__________________
Ahnlaashock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2009, 12:38   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: Back to just the Jon boat.
Posts: 6,318
Images: 4
If you are sheeted in too far for the angle being sailed then you can decrease the angle with the same sheet point.

If you are sheeted all the way in and the Snark has a little heel to it and the sail starts to luff then that is all the angle you are going to get.
__________________

__________________
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2009, 14:14   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South of St. Louis
Boat: not much yet
Posts: 170
Doesn't seem to improve from about the 5 o'clock position to all the way in to center of the boat.
Fickle winds here, but I had good enough wind yesterday to actually practice trying to keep it in the slot as tight upwind as I could get it to go. The sail begins to luff on either side of a very narrow slot.
__________________
Ahnlaashock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2009, 14:17   #4
Moderator
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 9,434
See if you can find another Snark and race him. Experiment with what he does.
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2009, 14:23   #5
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: Back to just the Jon boat.
Posts: 6,318
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahnlaashock View Post
Doesn't seem to improve from about the 5 o'clock position to all the way in to center of the boat.
Fickle winds here, but I had good enough wind yesterday to actually practice trying to keep it in the slot as tight upwind as I could get it to go. The sail begins to luff on either side of a very narrow slot.
I don't know what you mean by that.

On a beat a sail will luff when you point too high. As you fall off there is no luffing but more heel. With enough wind and keeping it sheeted in while falling off one goes for a swim.

At least that is how my snark worked.
__________________
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2009, 15:17   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
SkiprJohn's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kea'au, Big Island, Hawaii
Boat: Cascade, Sloop, 42 - "Casual"
Posts: 12,728
There is a really neat dohicky I bought for my Sunfish racing days. Its a Davis Blackmagic wind indicator and they attach to the forward end of the upper boom. You can make one out of a coathanger (or expensive stainless wire) and a feather but they don't look near as sexy. www.APSLTD.com item DV1295 or call up the Davis folks on the internet to see all the stuff they have.

It tells you exactly where the wind is at all times in relation to the sail. It tells you immediately if there is a windshift.

You can also attach a couple of telltales to your sail. I use either audio cassette tape or yarn. Put them on the sail about 18" back from where the mast intersects the sail. One on each side and you read them just like you do for sloops. Outside telltale drops, head up. Inside telltale drops, fall off.

Remember, you can almost point as high to the wind as a sloop so if you can read your wind better than a sloop sailor you'll keep up or beat him. (waterline length depending)

Good luck
__________________
John
SkiprJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2009, 19:54   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South of St. Louis
Boat: not much yet
Posts: 170
If you point up a little too much, the sail luffs and pops. If you are in the center, the sail fills and is taut. If you get a little too far off, it stops being full and taut at the mast. That is the best I can describe it.
I weigh in around 235, so if I lean back, I can keep it up and sailing to the point where it is making white water half the length of the boat. The only time I have been over with it was when I was pinching trying to make a target without tacking, and the wind shifted with me leaned out the wrong way or not paying attention. On my last good run yesterday, I held it till I picked up about 3 or 4 gallons of water towards the back where I was sitting. The bolt at the end of the tiller for the extension came lose and the wingnut went over the side. I was sitting towards the back because of the short tiller handle and took water on a run I would have been dry on if I had been sitting up towards the middle.
Where I sail, there is an island that I use as one end of the course. I have to beat thru a channel about 30 yards wide with a log sticking up in the middle. The winds are extremely shifty because of the high banks around the lake at that point. It often takes four or five tacks to get thru that narrow point around the end. I get frustrated trying to get the boat to make progress thru there.
The boat has a replacement dagger board made of an composite with aluminum skins. It is thin and cuts thru the water with little forward resistance. I am wondering if I might pick up a few degrees by going back to the wooden foil shaped dagger board, even tho it will have more drag.
I did not really pay that much attention in the Sunfish I sailed since I had great wind for beam runs back and forth, so I did little else.
I will see if I can record the actual run on the gps next time out and see just how bad it is. It might just be newcomer not patient enough or something!
A wind indicator would be a blessing because it never stops changing there. Near the docks, Sometimes you can sail up wind on both tacks without tacking! The wind does it for you!
I may get up to the Alton pool where I have more open water to play on this weekend!
__________________
Ahnlaashock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2009, 20:57   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South of St. Louis
Boat: not much yet
Posts: 170
The wood dagger board slows the boat a lot compared to the aluminum replacement. The good tack bad tack effect is much more pronounced, or seemed to be today.
In the stronger winds today, the boat would start to build an ever stronger weather helm until I was letting the sail out rather than fight the steering so hard. I flipped the rudder half way up to give me a longer steering surface to help fight it. Put in about 15 miles or so today in moderate steady winds.
Finally coming to terms with a way to turn from side to side while tacking without losing everything. Good thing too, because with the wooden board in it, with good wind, it will tack on a dime. Do not miss the tiller for that extra second! Kind of wish I had taken both boards and sailed them the same trip to see if the difference is as much as I think it is, or if it was just the conditions.
If you sheet the boat out to where the books would tell you to go, sheeted with foil edge to the felt wind, the sail will not be full. Luffing in the leeward side causing ripples from the leeward side in the front edge of the sail. Almost as if the center of effort had moved back, but left the front edge of the sail collapsed. If you sheet in some, the sail fills and away we go. When headed directly across the wind, I am sheeted out a little from where it goes up wind the best. Someone suggested today that this is caused by the old stretched out sail, and it is pretty baggy around the forward edge.
Anyway, I handled everything fine until I docked next to the pontoon boat on the windward side. Got pushed into a mess of brush trying to leave and dumped it over a submerged log. I can get back in over the transom without removing the rudder.
Anyway, I have way too many questions!
__________________
Ahnlaashock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2009, 05:40   #9
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: Back to just the Jon boat.
Posts: 6,318
Images: 4
Sounds like you're having fun anyway.

On one tack the sail can fill completely. On the other, the mast creates another "belly". The nature of the beast. No biggie.

Enjoy!
__________________
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2009, 08:01   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South of St. Louis
Boat: not much yet
Posts: 170
No one to compare with. I have only ever seen two other sailboats at Winter Brothers, and that was a couple of years ago. Four days ago, my dagger board was hitting the bottom in places. It was averaging 7 to 9 feet yesterday according to relatives on the pontoon. Sunfish type boats maybe a lot of the time. It's biggest virtue is that it is 7 miles from my home! Creve Cour lake has a lot more sailing, but that is more like thirty miles. I have not been there yet.

Having been warned that there was a good tack bad tack problem because of the mast interference, I have been watching to see the difference. With the thin, 3/16ths laminated aluminum clad dagger board, I never did see a real difference between the two, and it is possible that the bad tack sails closer to the wind than the good tack does. Yesterday, using the much thicker board, there was a definite difference.
One big difference between using the two boards is down wind. Using the composite board. I seldom ever lift it, even for a downwind run. The boat steps out fast enough to leave a wake like it is under power with the board down. Downwind with the wood board requires pulling the board if you want to reach that kind of speed.
And yes, I am having fun. I learn everything I can about things before I do them, but it requires the seat of the pants understanding for me to actually know it. For that purpose, the little Snark is perfect. I can't hike out over the edge and use my leverage to correct my mistakes with it. Best I can do is sit with my back to that side of the hull and lean back. The actual controls are pretty much everything with someone my size in a Snark. In that Sunfish I sailed, being able to hike out over the edge allowed me to make what were mistakes look good and deliberate to those that don't know better.
Anyone know the edge curvature used in the little lateen sails? Is there a formula or layout for these sails on-line that would include the edge offsets? Most of what I have read says they are cut flat with curved edges to produce the shape. I have a zigzag machine here and this sail is not that complicated. Three grommets and reinforcing tabs at the ends of the seams. The edges are simple socks for the yard and boom.
A new one is 65$ off Ebay, but I am more interested in the learning how aspect, and the local fabric store has rip stop on sale. If it was really a flat cut sail with curved edges when it was new, then this sail has changed a lot!
More questions! Will rip stop work for a small sail like this without any coatings? I believe it is used for spinnakers, but I don't know about using it for the primary sail.
Thanks for the input guys!
__________________
Ahnlaashock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2009, 08:19   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: Back to just the Jon boat.
Posts: 6,318
Images: 4
My wife made a sail for my Snark.
It was made flat with no attempt at a formed belly or anything.
Worked for me.
__________________
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2009, 11:36   #12
Senior Cruiser
 
SkiprJohn's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kea'au, Big Island, Hawaii
Boat: Cascade, Sloop, 42 - "Casual"
Posts: 12,728
You are having a great time! Learning very fast. The technique for tacking is always face forward, put your hands behind you and pass the tiller and sheet from one hand to the other without letting go. It'll take some practice but it is well worth learning. It is outlined in "Start Sailing Right!"
In your Snark, your weight forward and aft will make a big difference in performance. Make certain your tiller and tiller extension allow you to move midships while beating and aft while running.
Lots of fun, eh?
Sails for Sunfish are cut flat with no curves as far as I can tell. I'll break one out this afternoon and check it.
regards
__________________
John
SkiprJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2009, 12:19   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South of St. Louis
Boat: not much yet
Posts: 170
Thanks! All the written stuff I have found says they are cut flat and use edge curvature to provide draft. No mention found about whether or not the leading edge is curved and the lower edge straight, or any of the detail you would need to make a pro grade sail if that is true.
I need to go look in Sailmakers Apprentice to see if he makes any definite statements. I don't remember them if he did.
__________________
Ahnlaashock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2009, 13:02   #14
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 9,876
Hi,

I am in Las Palmas and man they do know how to sail the lateen rig here!!! It is a national rig down here and they do it competetively.

Federación de Vela Latina Canaria

The only issue is I do not know if they speak English. But since the US is actually a bi-lingual country, I guess you can speak Spanish or have some friend or neighbor who can write to them on your behalf.

Regards,
b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2009, 15:35   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South of St. Louis
Boat: not much yet
Posts: 170
This is about the most info I have found so far.

Copied from nationmaster
Since the upper and lower spars provide a frame for the sail, the camber of the sail is simply a function of how tightly the spars stretch the sail. This means that lateen sails are often cut flat, without the complex cutting and stitching required to provide camber in Bermuda rig sails. Curved edges, when mated with the straight spars, provide all or nearly all of the sail curvature needed.
__________________

__________________
Ahnlaashock is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What's a B&R Rig? sjs General Sailing Forum 8 23-01-2013 15:07
Fractional Rig junohera Monohull Sailboats 7 09-10-2009 16:40
Bi-rig freetime Multihull Sailboats 44 23-09-2008 22:08
Rig Tension bluewater Construction, Maintenance & Refit 9 27-08-2007 18:53
oceanic lateen /crab claw sail beau General Sailing Forum 0 05-04-2007 15:56


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:25.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Sailing News Delivered to your Email!

Stay up-to-date with the latest cruising news.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]


ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.