Sail management under 'high' wind

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Wrong

Spot on. Plus, my boat is 27' on deck with a relatively low freeboard and 8' beam.

Hi, guys,

I made a mistake in my post yesterday. I should have said that once the OP turned down, the true wind would be ~14 k. Sorry for the misinformation.

Considering that my frames of reference have gone from a 30 footer to a 46 footer, I think Wrong, with a boat with a short waterline, may well be doing the most prudent thing, making a wise, seamanlike decision, for the wind against tide situation. The skipper has the duty to preserve the safety of himself and the crew, and has to develop the knowledge of his/her vessel by trial and error, after consideration. I think the OP's doing fine, asking for help.

Raku, lacing is different from netting, but the concept is similar, from the point of view of keeping the sail on deck. The lacing "holes" are lots further apart than netting.

Ann

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by MarkSF

The previous owner of my boat did that, and the sheet wrapped around the shaft hanked the prop shaft out, and ripped the gearbox off the engine. The shaft was then jamming the rudder, so no steering - and a major leak of course. Oh, and the sheet ripped the jib off the furler, and wrecked the furler.

So the bill was $14,000 for :

A new gearbox
Prop shaft, straightening the prop
Repairing the rudder
Repairs to the jib
New furler and forestay

Oh, did I mention that his crew had gone overboard? The coastguard picked him up, just in time.

Yes, do not start the engine until you have all the lines under control.

That's very weird. My engine starts in neutral. The propeller isn't turning.

I said several times that when the ship hits the fan you have to repeatedly check to make sure there are no lines in the water *before engaging the engine.*

The first thing I do is start the engine. The second thing I do is put it in neutral. It should be automatic for anyone with any kind of engine (outboard or inboard) to check for lines in the water before putting the engine in gear.

DON'T PUT THE ENGINE IN GEAR UNTIL YOU ARE CERTAIN THERE ARE NO LINES IN THE WATER. I've said it multiple times already.

but I DO start it immediately. I want to know that it will run if I need it.

[JPA Cate]

Rakuflames:

Of course you can start your engine immediately, but honestly, I think you would be better served by teaching yourself to check first, for lines in the water. It only takes a moment. IMO, it's a preferable habit because it can serve one so much better, and the downside can be extreme. YMMV

[Jim Cate]

Re running the engine in neutral whilst sailing:

Be aware that if you have a fixed blade prop and are in neutral and are making much speed at all the prop will be turning and can (and has done) be fouled by a trailing bit of line. Then when you go to retrieve the line before putting it into gear there is an unfouling exercise to go through... not so bad as when the fouling occurs under power, but time consuming when you have other things on your mind!

Point is that one should check for lines overboard before starting, even if you intend to leave in neutral.

And Raku, don't you have your order reversed? I put the tranny in neutral first, then start the engine.

Cheers,
Jim

[Cheechako]

I think you did pretty good. I suggest you check all your running rigging... the forces on your furling line shouldnt be that high... snapping one is pretty uncommon... so I can only assume that it was pretty rotten.
The Straight of Geo and be a pretty mean place at times... and a good learning place I'm sure.
Here's the dilemma in the PNW, that 135% genoa is great for much of the summer, but in a place like the Straight, with it blowing 25 knots etc, wrong sail for the job if you want to be comfortable. And if it's older the shape is terrible partially furled. Heck, I've had two brand new 115-120% Genoas with foam and padded luffs and they still looked like crap when partially furled. Problem is... the next day the Straight may be like a mirror! If you have something in the 100-115% range I would sail with it if you go into the Straight alot. unless you insist on sailing even in 5 knots of wind....

[MarkSF]

In addition, if you have proper stop knots in your jib sheets, it makes it much harder for them to get into the prop - not impossible, but harder.

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Rakuflames:

Of course you can start your engine immediately, but honestly, I think you would be better served by teaching yourself to check first, for lines in the water. It only takes a moment. IMO, it's a preferable habit because it can serve one so much better, and the downside can be extreme. YMMV

Is it o.k if I assume an engine is only going to be necessary on rare occasions? For example, to maintain direction and headway against strong current, give an extra edge against being pushed onto a lee shore, to avoid collision, enter and leave a marina or when you've lost any way to sail due to no wind, sail damage or dismasting and approaching a passage with steep land forms capable of blocking the wind? Really of little or no use in large seas and strong wind.

Just saying.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

turn downwind and run off. Id never try and stay close hauled and fix things, way to much stuff can go wrong.

dave

Exactly

A tough sail upwind turns into a doddle as soon as you head off. If you have searoom, you can even go forward and fix the furling line.

Alternatively, you can heave to.

Almost this exact thing happened to me in may. The riggers (I had my mast out and replaced all my standing rigging over the winter) had failed to screw down the furling drums tightly, I was reefed well down and sailing upwind hard on the wind from Weymouth towards home in 25 knots gusting to 30. It was a good, hard, fast upwind sail. The furling line gave way and my very large yankee jib (over 1000 square feet) rolled all the way out -- pretty scary.

I immediately put the helm over to bring the boat's head through the wind without tacking the yankee, which put me into a hove-to position in about 5 seconds. I then went forward with tools, took apart the furling drum, reattached the furling line, laboriously wound it back on, put the shield back together, the re-rove the furling line back to the cockpit.

Then I winched in the appropriate amount of jib, tacked back and proceed on my way. Lost about an hour.


But heading off would have also worked well.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Re running the engine in neutral whilst sailing:

Be aware that if you have a fixed blade prop and are in neutral and are making much speed at all the prop will be turning and can (and has done) be fouled by a trailing bit of line. Then when you go to retrieve the line before putting it into gear there is an unfouling exercise to go through... not so bad as when the fouling occurs under power, but time consuming when you have other things on your mind!

Point is that one should check for lines overboard before starting, even if you intend to leave in neutral.

And Raku, don't you have your order reversed? I put the tranny in neutral first, then start the engine.

Cheers,
Jim

I never once set out to write a perfect, step-by-step list of every single thing to do. I operated on the assumption that people KNOW to start their engines in neutral, and that was certainly implied when I repeatedly said LEAVE it in neutral until you've checked for lines.

I assume people know to start their engines in neutral. Mine won't start in any other gear. Hopefully people know how to start their engines.

However, I did NOT realize that the prop could be fouled in neutral, so I really appreciate the clarification.

The scenario you describe could easily be part of a cascade of smaller events leading to catastrophe and I really appreciate the information. For instance, I would not want to have to dive down with snorkel gear in rough water to undo that line. I certainly wouldn't want to have to do it in 25 knot winds with the roller furler not working, and me having to leave someone at the helm who might or might not know what she was doing. So it would be a BOAT US moment for me and I hate those moments!

I just recently said in another post that we know enough to take our boats out and back before we know everything we need to know, and here's a classic example. I have started the engine many times -- I routinely do it before crossing the shipping channel, for instance, leaving it in neutral -- but didn't check for loose lines unless I intended to put the boat in gear.

I also start it before exiting or entering the Manatee River unless everything is absolutely perfect, including being on a high tide.


Thank you.

[MarkSF]

If I am sailing and a sheet goes in the water, I immediately put the engine in gear to stop the prop spinning.

To Dockhead, that's great if your boat will heave to under full genoa. Mine certainly won't, the jib needs to be furled down, otherwise the boat will spin around and gybe.

[eliems]

When beating against high winds on the nose and short period waves in the Georgia Straight I run a reefed main and motor along. The main adds stability and a bit of speed while I sit in a swing chair I hang from the two winches over the cabin. Now I am out of the wind and spray with the auto-pilot steering keeping an eye out through the dodger.

Might not be purist but it is comfortable and faster given there isn't much tacking with just the main up.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Wrong

So, you believe heaving to is only for emergencies?

I have no idea what your level of experience is, where you have sailed or how far. But to say "hove to should not be necessary in 25 knots", without considering how different boats in similar conditions perform and how one may be more vulnerable than another reveals a certain amount of naivette.

You also suggest without knowing more, someone who heaves to in 25 knots is doing so unecessarily and without reefing first. You go further by saying they should learn to reef and infer if they had known how heaving to should not be required.

Not going to take what you've said personally, but the fact is you've suggested I must not know how to reef, because if I did I'd have been able to continue reaching into 25 knot wind.

If you wish to wait for emergencies before heaving to, by all means do. But the whole point of heaving to is to rest and or yeild to forces than may lead to undesirable outcomes if you push back - or keep going. And, yeah - long before
heaving to I've reefed down.

I don't understand what all this is about. Heaving to doesn't require any particular skill, other than balancing your sails a bit if necessary. Why do you need to wait for some particular conditions, to heave to? Are we talking about the same thing? You can heave to in anything from a dead calm to a hurricane, for any reason from having a cup of tea, or making lunch, to fixing something, to taking a rest on a hard upwind sail, to stopping the boat for a lost boathook, to picking up a mooring under sail, to taking pressure off sails for reefing or adjusting a halyard, to giving a seasick passenger a break from the motion, to taking a nap or making love on passage, or whatever. Anyone who thinks there's something scary about it, should do it more often. It should be a completely natural and instinctive maneuver -- it is fundamental to sailing. When I teach people to sail, this is covered on the very first day. Tacking, jibing, heaving to. The three fundamental manuevers under sail.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MarkSF

If I am sailing and a sheet goes in the water, I immediately put the engine in gear to stop the prop spinning.

To Dockhead, that's great if your boat will heave to under full genoa. Mine certainly won't, the jib needs to be furled down, otherwise the boat will spin around and gybe.

Hmm, are you a fractional rig maybe? I've never seen a boat behave the way you describe. My boat heaves to better if the headsail is not reefed down -- she tends to forereach if I don't have enough headsail up. My previous boat, a very different rig and keel design, was exactly the same.


As to the prop -- my transmission is always in gear when I'm sailing, because I have a feathering prop which requires it. I start the engine in gear, if the transmission is already in gear (I have no interlock). Naturally, I check for lines in the water first, but I do have a Stripper rope cutter, in case I miss something.

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't understand what all this is about. Heaving to doesn't require any particular skill, other than balancing your sails a bit if necessary. Why do you need to wait for some particular conditions, to heave to? Are we talking about the same thing? You can heave to in anything from a dead calm to a hurricane, for any reason from having a cup of tea, or making lunch, to fixing something, to taking a rest on a hard upwind sail, to stopping the boat for a lost boathook, to picking up a mooring under sail, to taking pressure off sails for reefing or adjusting a halyard, to giving a seasick passenger a break from the motion, to taking a nap or making love on passage, or whatever. Anyone who thinks there's something scary about it, should do it more often. It should be a completely natural and instinctive maneuver -- it is fundamental to sailing. When I teach people to sail, this is covered on the very first day. Tacking, jibing, heaving to. The three fundamental manuevers under sail.

Sorta what I said, but in fewer words, eh?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Wrong

Sorta what I said, but in fewer words, eh?

Touche