Raymarine Autohelm Failure

[helenbates]

hi. The good news is they have managed to fix the third arm (it was a different issue to the previous two) so progress continues well.
All the input I am sending them has been really helpful though so thanks once again.
I'll update if / when they get any resolution with the first two.
Thanks!

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

I can't get to any of the Raymarine literature on the tiller drives. I get "access denied" message. Can anyone else get the info?

I have just located these manuals.

https://raymarine.app.box.com/s/nwf2...u/1/2495502465

I haven't had a chance to read them yet but will try to in the next few hours.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by helenbates

hi. The good news is they have managed to fix the third arm (it was a different issue to the previous two) so progress continues well.
All the input I am sending them has been really helpful though so thanks once again.
I'll update if / when they get any resolution with the first two.
Thanks!

That is good news.

Can you tell us exactly what hey did to get the third arm going again?

Can you tell use what diagnostic equipment they have on board - multi meter etc.?

Any of the crew got basic electrical / electronic knowledge - however basic or advanced?

This helps us to recommend particular test techniques etc.

I have downloaded the install and operation manuals and will read then soon(ish) to familiarise myself with the system.

The good news is that the two faulty arms are not intermittent and did work for awhile.
The bad news is that they "appear" to be serviceable when tested with a simple test of 12V. My experience is that simple tests of individual components in a complex system often do not reveal what is wrong. That is, each component seems to be OK, the inter-wiring tests OK but they don't work when connected together.

It is always possible that more than one fault exists.

BUT this equipment was made by humans, installed by humans and commissioned into service by humans so it can be repaired by humans.

Where else on the web are you looking for answers? I ask because sometimes a gem of knowledge might be out there somewhere that triggers an idea for someone else and so on. FWIW, collectively CF has some good brains

[Neptune's Gear]

I see my name mentioned in vain! I'm not really familiar with this model ap, but I'd suggest the issue is not necessarily in the ram, but perhaps in the data connection. The ram has two main functions. The first is (obviously) is to push/pull the helm to Port/stb. The 2nd is to provide helm position /movement data. A simple turn to Port/stb ram would only have 2 wires, and reverse the polarity to change direction. This is how the hydraulic helm pumps work.
So, in this case, with the ram stuck fully at one end, I'd suggest that the position data is malfunctioning. The ram would test fine on a batt, but the position data is not reaching the computer unit for some reason. This could be wiring connection, or a fault in the sensor of the ram or computer.
What control head do they have? It may show rudder position. It would be interesting to see if this changes when the ram is moved?
I'll check those manuals tonight and see if I can come up with something better.
I can also talk to Raymarine on Monday if it's not sorted by then.
I'll get back to you if I can come up with anything that might be useful.
Matt (Island Time)

[helenbates]

Hi Wotname and everyone else - you are all so super helpful and I am really grateful for all the responses.

The problem with the third arm appeared to be unrelated to the issues that the first two were experiencing... I will fwd on these latest replies to the boat and hope to get an answer though understandably I don't get immediate responses.

I have also posted it on a sailing.net forum but no replies...
On YBW - Raymarine SPX5 Autohelm Failure
And also on a facebook group of ocean rowers
https://www.facebook.com/groups/177897862285064/

Thanks!

[Neptune's Gear]

The link above to the manual not working either...

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

The link above to the manual not working either...

Hmm... worked for me. PM me if you want me to email the installation manual (pdf) to you. It's about 1.7Mb.

I aso have the operation manual form the same site.

[Snowpetrel]

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&s...q4zlV9UkpM9cHw

interesting pdf here with a more detailed description of the tiller drive and other parts.

It seems to me like the tiller drive unit is a QO47 and it hasn't really been updated since the old ST 4000 days. If this is the case its a pretty dumb unit, in terms of having no real rudder feedback system or sensor inside it. Looks like just a reversing motor attached to a ball screw ram.

I would love to know just how the head unit knows just where the ram is and how they stop from running the ram past its full travel.

[DeepFrz]

Thanks Wotname for the link. I have the manual but have not had a chance to read it.

[helenbates]

Hi everyone - replies from the boat:

Computer knows where rudder is solely by compass reading and adjusts accordingly. So effectively it doesn't know where it is, just effect it is having on direction.
We have a multimeter on board and a good knowledge of electrics - Colin was a BMW technician.
Fix for 3rd arm was in fact 2 separate issues - we had accidentally moved the tool bag to right beside the compass which was interfering with reading. Once off we found the power cables had basically sheared themselves off. The unit wasn't brand new as we had understood it to be.
No need for anyone to call Raymarine as have exhausted that route - they just don't know.

Also, yes it is the Q047 unit. 2 ways it stops the ram going past it's full travel - mechanically it can only screw out/in so far, then stops. Secondly you calibrate the computer by telling it the distance/time it takes to go from fully to port, to fully to starboard, then you can further limit within this range how far it can move.

He'd like to say a big thank you to you all - everything you've sent has been super helpful and he feels that new ideas have been really useful too.
Hopefully we / they can get them all the way to fixing one of the other ones and taking the pressure off for the rest of the crossing!

THANKS

[chala]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Seems like they are a straightforward bit of kit with no fancy circuit boards in the ram unit, so I am not sure how they sense end of travel or ram position.

They will hunt and should not be allowed to do that.

The control unit will disconnect if the ram is over loaded.

Changing the position of the ram attachment on the tiller may reduce possible overload.

[Neptune's Gear]

Ok, got the service manual. This unit's rudder control is pretty stupid! Only 2 wires for the ram, and no accurate rudder position info. Hitting an end stop will overload the ram motor and switch it off. Programmable "time" for hard over is a poor way to do this as the time will vary with load.
So, at this point if the rams move on battery test, with <2.5a current, in each direction, there is nothing wrong with the rams. If they need more current than that, they are probably wet inside/faulty.
Start with a factory reset. Then do the dockside setup and commissioning process again, as per user manual. If that does not work, it could be a faulty ap computer, although that does not explain why the behaviour changed with the rams, so most likely:
The issue could be external - either a change in environment-like the tool bag by the compass, or inconsistent operations.
Does the ap compass agree with the magnetic compass? How is the ap being used - steer to compass, or to a waypoint/track? Make sure when engaging , the xte is 0 if a waypoint is being used. If waypoint/track, then is the full extension turning the boat towards the track?
Set it to manual mode (if present?) and turn the wheel one way then the other - does the ram move both ways then?

[Neptune's Gear]

Ok got the operation manual as well as the service manual now. Thanks wotty. Perhaps the most telling thing at this point will be: put the ram in the middle. in standby mode press +10 does the ram move? Push -10 does it move the other way?

[Snowpetrel]

Thanks Matt, good to get back to the basics, sorry about getting your username wrong! By the way my folks AP seems to be working well since Sam completely rewired it with much heavier cabling and via a more direct route. They are kicking around Auckland and Northland for the winter.

I had a older ST4000 with a qo47 drive on snowpetrel for many years. It worked well, though I used the windvane most of the time so it never got a workout. Only issue was the plug, and hardwiring it solved that issue for good. But a yacht is a lot drier than an ocean rowboat!

There is a lot of good info on these and similar units on the ssssf forum here http://sfbaysss.org/forum/

A few takehomes from a quick scan of the posts is the need for a cover of some sort and silicon grease on the driveshafts to reduce water intake and decreasing the gain from the factory preset of 5 to a lower number to reduce cycling and work and extend gear and motor life.

I'd love to know more about the installation, is it inside or outside? Plug position, head unit exposure to moisture etc.

Since they have three units it would be good to get some baseline data off the working one, eg voltages and amperages while working hard, and under no load. This data could be compared with the non working units. And might help if the good unit dies.

One of the nonworking units might be worth disassembling and testing inside with a direct connection to the control unit. To simulate a swinging boat the fluxgate compass can be unscrewed and rotated by hand to test autopilot response. This is often easier than altering the course. This was how I bench tested mine while using it on deliveries when tied to the dock.

[Wotname]

So far all good points by Snowpetrel, Neptune's Gear and DeepFrz.

Just to confirm, you all now have 3 manuals; the Installation Manual, Operation Manual and Service Manual. If for some reason you still can't download some, I can email them.

Along with the guys on board and Helen, there must be a good chance of getting the problems sorted.

I concur with SnowPetrel about using silicone grease on the ram. While Raymarine caution against anything applied to the ram, my experience in that they last longer with some DC4 applied to the ram - keeps the water out better.

I got a few things on this weekend so I will only be checking my email occasionally - sorry.