Racing question - overtaking leeward boat

[OldFrog75]

Assuming both boats are on starboard tack the overtaking leeward boat must maintain it's proper course and is therefore precluded from luffing up the windward boat.

In the unlikely yet possible scenario the wind backs counter clockwise the proper course for both boats would be to tack over to port. If the slower windward boat chooses not to tack (for whatever reason) can the overtaking leeward boat demand room to tack and file a protest if the windward boat does not comply?

[caradow]

No
Unless the leeward boat is faced with an obstruction.
Starbord Tack Rule.

[psk125]

The post above refers to "proper course" with the possible assumption that the "proper courses" for overlapping boats are parallel. This is not necessarily the case. I have been the leeward boat in overtaking situations where my "proper course" was a good 10º higher than my competitor to windward. We were on a reach, and I was pointing higher and going faster than him - that's why I was overtaking him. When he protested me he found out that my proper course did not have to be the same as his. Going upwind, a 12-meter that started to pass (within two of her boatlengths) to leeward of me would certainly be on their proper course, probably 10 or 15º higher than mine. They can't sail ABOVE that, or luff up further than their proper course, but their heading would certainly put the squeeze on me at some point. I would have to keep clear of the leeward boat and let them by, or tack away. If both boats get headed, Caradow is right: L can hope he pulls out far enough ahead to make a clean tack, or duck W's transom for the new breeze.

[OldFrog75]

Originally Posted by psk125

The post above refers to "proper course" with the possible assumption that the "proper courses" for overlapping boats are parallel. This is not necessarily the case. I have been the leeward boat in overtaking situations where my "proper course" was a good 10º higher than my competitor to windward. We were on a reach, and I was pointing higher and going faster than him - that's why I was overtaking him. When he protested me he found out that my proper course did not have to be the same as his. Going upwind, a 12-meter that started to pass (within two of her boatlengths) to leeward of me would certainly be on their proper course, probably 10 or 15º higher than mine. They can't sail ABOVE that, or luff up further than their proper course, but their heading would certainly put the squeeze on me at some point. I would have to keep clear of the leeward boat and let them by, or tack away. If both boats get headed, Caradow is right: L can hope he pulls out far enough ahead to make a clean tack, or duck W's transom for the new breeze.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I knew the answer to the question so it was more like a riddle than an inquiry but I was bored.

[psk125]

Snowing there too, eh?

More likely rain.

[OldFrog75]

[QUOTE=psk125;2025263]The post above refers to "proper course" with the possible assumption that the "proper courses" for overlapping boats are parallel. This is not necessarily the case. I have been the leeward boat in overtaking situations where my "proper course" was a good 10º higher than my competitor to windward.[QUOTE]

See it all the time on a downwind leg to a leeward mark. A faster leeward boat overtaking a slower windward boat plus a difference in the polars for the two boats. Asymmetrical vs. symmetrical spinnakers make a difference as well.

[Foolish]

From my experience, the concept of Proper Course has always been tricky. Mainly because it is not the "actual" proper course, but the skippers perception of proper course that matters. So if I say that I thought I was sailing the fastest proper course to the mark, then even if I'm wrong it is not within the rules to argue with me. Because of this it is very difficult to argue a proper course violation, unless the boat was so outrageously off course as to make it well beyond unreasonable. Am I correct on this?

[OldFrog75]

Originally Posted by Foolish

From my experience, the concept of Proper Course has always been tricky. Mainly because it is not the "actual" proper course, but the skippers perception of proper course that matters. So if I say that I thought I was sailing the fastest proper course to the mark, then even if I'm wrong it is not within the rules to argue with me. Because of this it is very difficult to argue a proper course violation, unless the boat was so outrageously off course as to make it well beyond unreasonable. Am I correct on this?

Based upon my experience, yes, since proper course is the "best course" sailed in the absence of the offended boat. The burden of proof is generally on the protestor not the protestee. All the prostestee has to "prove" is that he sailed the course he would have sailed if the protesting boat wasn't there:

http://www.muskegonyachtclub.org/doc...operCourse.pdf

[frozenhawaiian]

depends, are we going by racing rules or the colregs?

[seasalt2012]

The leeward boat can choose whatever course is best for his boat. It may be 1-2 degrees off the wind in order tor force the windward boat to slow down so the leeward boat can not be overtaken.
BUT- The leeward boat can not force windward boat into irons (directly into the wind) or onto another tack.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by seasalt2012

BUT- The leeward boat can not force windward boat into irons (directly into the wind) or onto another tack.

Do you have a reference for that? I can't find anything in the RROS or the CaseBook. All I can find in the CaseBook on this subject is:

CASE 14
When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper course, two boats on the same tack converge, the windward boat must keep clear. Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper courses.

CASE 46
A leeward boat is entitled to sail up to her proper course, even when she has established a leeward overlap from clear astern and within two of her hull lengths of the windward boat.
CASE 78
In a fleet race either for one-design boats or for boats racing under a handicap or rating system, a boat may use tactics that clearly interfere with and hinder another boat’s progress in the race, provided that, if she is protested under rule 2 for doing so, the protest committee finds that there was a reasonable chance of her tactics benefiting either her final ranking in the event or her chances of gaining selection for another event or for her national team.

[s/v Jedi]

The OP asked about tacking into the windward boat. Here is how I was taught this:

When the windward boat is overtaking the leeward one, the leeward boat can tack as long as the bow of the windward boat is still behind the mast of the leeward boat. Once the bow of the windward boat is past the mast, the leeward boat has been overtaken and tacking would be causing a collision. Draw it out and you'll find this to be how it is: the windward boat would be hit even if it tacks.

I also agree with Stu: the leeward boat can sail whatever high an angle they want; the windward boat should just steer clear (tack or pass astern) if they are bothered by that or unable to steer that high.

[AD28]

it has been a very long time since the Jedi was a padawan, since 'mast abeam' has been written out of the rules since something like 2008...

Strongly suggest you ask this question at Sailing Anarchy, where there are people who race regularly. This is the 'Cruisers' Forum,' after all...

[StuM]

Originally Posted by AD28

it has been a very long time since the Jedi was a padawan, since 'mast abeam' has been written out of the rules since something like 2008...

Strongly suggest you ask this question at Sailing Anarchy, where there are people who race regularly. This is the 'Cruisers' Forum,' after all...

A long time before that. It was removed in 1997, along with "sharp luff"

[s/v Jedi]

Well let's see... last regatta was in 1986 so you guys may have a point