Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-02-2016, 16:50   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: aboard Akka, currently in San Francisco Bay
Boat: Stevens Custom 50
Posts: 70
Re: Racing question - overtaking leeward boat

The answer to your question is, the leeward boat doesn't have to ask for room to do anything. After the shift, her proper course is to tack, so she can luff up to head-to-wind without anybody's permission. When she does so, she must give the windward boat room to keep clear. Of course, the leeward boat can't actually tack before the other boat does so, because if she did she'd be on port tack and the other boat would still be on starboard, which would be bad for the formerly leeward boat.

If the leeward boat luffs and the windward boat does nothing to keep clear in a seamanlike way (in this case, luff up to head-to-wind or tack), then the leeward boat not only can protest, she should do so. We're the only "cops" out there, so we have to do the sometimes unpleasant job of enforcing the rules.
__________________

__________________
Akka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2016, 18:50   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Southport CT
Boat: J/36
Posts: 377
Re: Racing question - overtaking leeward boat

What Akka said, too.
__________________

__________________
psk125 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2016, 10:17   #33
Registered User
 
OldFrog75's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Boat: Club Sailor; various
Posts: 922
Re: Racing question - overtaking leeward boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
The answer to your question is, the leeward boat doesn't have to ask for room to do anything. After the shift, her proper course is to tack, so she can luff up to head-to-wind without anybody's permission. When she does so, she must give the windward boat room to keep clear. Of course, the leeward boat can't actually tack before the other boat does so, because if she did she'd be on port tack and the other boat would still be on starboard, which would be bad for the formerly leeward boat.
.
I believe this is incorrect. Once L establishes an overlap from clear astern the changing conditions do not eliminate her obligation as the keep clear boat.

Once abeam of W, L is effectively pinned by W and can't do anything about it until she is either far enough ahead or behind W to safely tack over.
__________________
OldFrog75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2016, 10:26   #34
cruiser

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 285
Re: Racing question - overtaking leeward boat

Never mind the rules, here's the reality:

W is going to hold her course or at least waste your time jawing about who has rights.

The smart, quick, expedient thing to do is 'slow down to win.'

Just slow a bit, take W's stern, and tack. The faster, the better. You then are away, and can go ahead and do what you want.

I watch these situations happen, and what comes of them is usually the two boats are farting around with each other and a third boat passes them both and wins the race. I've been that third boat, and had other boats try to get with me into what they think are 'luffing matches' when they're just 'time wasters.'

This is true ESPECIALLY if the boats aren't same design...
__________________
AD28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2016, 10:45   #35
Marine Service Provider
 
mackconsult's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vancouver, WA
Boat: 18 ft avon
Posts: 214
Re: Racing question - overtaking leeward boat

That is most likely because the windward boat did not allow you to keep clear.

From the RRS:

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat
clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull

lengths to
leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail

above her
proper course while they remain on the same tack and

overlapped
within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails

astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the
overlap

begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

Ref: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...20132016Final-[13376].pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by psk125 View Post
Sorry, Mack. I've gone through this protest as the leeward boat, and won. Really surprised W in his new Sabre.
mackconsult is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2016, 11:08   #36
Registered User
 
sanibel sailor's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sanibel FL
Boat: 1979 Bristol 35.5 CB
Posts: 977
Re: Racing question - overtaking leeward boat

agree with above, rule 17 applies and she cannot sail above her proper course, meaning she cannot luff up the windward boat. If she tacks, she immediately becomes subject to rule 13 and loses all rights until she is back on close hauled.

Exception is for an obstruction as mentioned above.

Bring it up on Sailing Anarchy...
__________________
John Churchill Sanibel FL
NURDLE, 1979 Bristol 35.5 CB
sanibel sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2016, 12:51   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: aboard Akka, currently in San Francisco Bay
Boat: Stevens Custom 50
Posts: 70
Re: Racing question - overtaking leeward boat

I really like ADB's answer. In a lot of cases, exercising your rights (in this case, L's right of way) is not the best course of action. Given the big wind shift, it's clear that both boats should tack if they want to do well in the race, and the sooner, the better. The fastest way for L to do that is to slow down, luff across W's stern, and tack.

Having said that, remember that this is a rules quiz, not a tactics question. As Sanibel points out, rule 17 applies, because L established her overlap from clear astern and within 2 boatlengths of W. But given the big header, L's proper course is to tack, so "[L] shall not sail above her proper course" imposes no restriction on L, as there is no course L can sail that's above her proper course. Ergo, she can luff to head to wind, as long as she gives W room to keep clear (which probably means a very slow luff, as the boats are close to each other). W has to respond, and has to tack away if a luff to head-to-wind doesn't keep her clear of L.

By the way, even if rule 17 restricts the leeward boat, it does not contradict rule 11, which requires the windward boat to keep clear. If W thinks rule 17 restricts L and L's luff is illegal, W's only safe option is to keep clear and protest. Even if W is right about rule 17, simply refusing to respond to L's luff will buy W a DSQ in the protest room.

Sorry, OldFrog75, but you're inventing rules. You seem to think L has to keep clear of W, when exactly the opposite is true (see RRS 11)!
__________________
Akka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-02-2016, 13:41   #38
Registered User
 
OldFrog75's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Boat: Club Sailor; various
Posts: 922
Re: Racing question - overtaking leeward boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
Sorry, OldFrog75, but you're inventing rules. You seem to think L has to keep clear of W, when exactly the opposite is true (see RRS 11)!
Didn't mean to say or imply that - only that L cannot sail above her proper course and attack W.

Granted this is a hypothetical situation which I have never been in, nor am I likely to in the future, but I still believe that L is prohibited from sailing higher than close hauled (unless they are past the lay line) while they are on the same tack and if she does, she should be protested by W, especially if W's only way to keep clear is to tack away. W might lose in committee but the protest flag would force L to at least consider absolving herself with penalty turns, because depending on the committee failure to do so might result in DSQ.

In committee I would say "the rules are a shield not a sword" and I don't believe a faster Leeward boat overlapping from clear astern has the right to sail higher than close hauled and attack a slower Windward boat while on the same tack just because the wind shifted. If L wants to tack she has to immediately go clear astern of W.

__________________

__________________
OldFrog75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
racing

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
90' USED RACING TRIMARAN COMES COMPLETE WITH THE WINNING TRANSPACK RACING CREW Sand crab Multihull Sailboats 6 02-09-2014 22:40
Overtaking Vessel Wanting you to Speed Up Saltysailor2 Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 130 13-07-2014 00:11
When is a Boat Passing from Behind not Overtaking? Narrow Channel Part II TacomaSailor Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 120 28-06-2014 09:01
Narrow Channel Overtaking and Sailing TacomaSailor Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 152 21-06-2014 21:15
Overtaking vs Port/Starboard Tack SkiprJohn Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 47 15-01-2008 13:48



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:08.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.