Questions from a newbie....

[David_Old_Jersey]

GRP is more idiot proof on purchase and maintanence (that important when dealing with PO's!).

[Nikki Pebble]

Thanks for the links

Its funny(?) how after a few posts of people saying steel is good to find buried a story like this..

Fundamentals of Terra D'Agua part 4 — Terradagua

One of the things that I questioned when I visited Iris was the lack of bilge inspection holes .... all I got was a non-committal grunt, followed by "but she does have a big hold"... and yes, he did offer to find a surveyor for me too, at a special price of £1000 including lift.

I suppose that turning up with a saw and cutting an inspection hole in the sole big enough for me to crawl down would be a no-no?!

It also appears that I should treat boat brokers as 'Honest Sid, Car Salesman' type characters and marine surveyors 'a necessary evil to acquire insurance'.
I hope that I am being unfair and that I find a tame one.

I first saw the boat 3 years ago advertised for more that twice the amount that I was prepared to pay. When I suggested (verbally) this much lower price he seemed very keen. I had assumed that the 3 years of berthing fees was eating into any profit the seller had hoped for.

In conclusion I find that my heart is saying "Yes, yes, yes" when looking at the living space, whilst the brief internet search tells my head that this could be a hugely expensive folly. This boat is right at the top of my budget and eats into the 15%misc safety net as well.

Back to interweb trawling and expensive glossy magazines for me. It seemed to be too good to be true that I would not have to travel the length and breadth of the UK to find a new home. (I live in Somerset).

Many thanks to all of you for your input. After consideration I feel that I would be over-reaching myself and my cowardice has (potentially) saved the day and my bank balance.

[jreiter190]

After looking at the picture of Iris, I can see she's actually a staysail schooner with a big wheelhouse, which makes her a motorsailer.If the price is right and she has enough power to get out of trouble, go ahead and buy her and enjoy her. Hell, I always was a sucker for a schooner. Have a great time.

[Steadman Uhlich]

A few more comments...

Schooners come in all sizes, from relatively small, to very large!

That this boat is about 35 feet LOA does not mean it is the wrong size to be a schooner.

Many Dutch built steel boats are excellent in quality of construction and fitting of interior. Of course any boat should be judged as an individual, based on its condition.

Given one of the comments above by Nikki, and lack of experience with steel boats, I think the question of inspection of the bilge, engine, and under the sole areas should be referred to the experienced professional marine surveyor who knows steel boats.

My suggestion? Nikki should find a good surveyor.

Secondly, but before paying for a survey, Nikki could find someone local who really knows steel boats to go visit the boat with Nikki. This does not have to be a pro surveyor. Perhaps an experience steel boat owner could be enticed if compensated some way. The point being to get a third party, with experience with steel boats, to get inside the boat with Nikki. This does not mean a full blown survey. I mean a short, but good walk through and look, with someone with experience.

From what I can see in the photos at the brokers site, this looks like a nicely designed and very good condition steel boat. I have looked at many steel boats in the UK, online only of course, and this one looks very nice compared to most at that price level. In fact, if I was there, I would go in order to see it.

[Nikki Pebble]

Originally Posted by micah719

Here are the two currently active steel threads:


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ll-150804.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-150991.html

Of particular note would be the posts featuring surveyors, and what can happen if they miss something. Why was the boat painted? It pays to check, check again; trust but verify!

The saving of WhiteBird

One thing we haven't covered yet is environmental friendliness of steel. At the end of its life it returns to iron ore, either as oxide as it once was, or recycled into something new. Fibreglass is essentially forever, unless it's burned; the CO2 is just plant food, but some of the other stuff in it might not be so healthy....

Thank you for those links - I think they answer most of my questions. There are some seriously scary stories there. I dont have enough money or faith in my maintenance skills to attempt a total rebuild if I get this wrong
Environmentally, I agree that steel is better especially after spending 2 weeks painting some truly vile chemicals on a GRP hull. If that stuff can melt a paintbrush/roller I am not comfortable using it.

[Nikki Pebble]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

A few more comments...

Schooners come in all sizes, from relatively small, to very large!

That this boat is about 35 feet LOA does not mean it is the wrong size to be a schooner.

Many Dutch built steel boats are excellent in quality of construction and fitting of interior. Of course any boat should be judged as an individual, based on its condition.

Given one of the comments above by Nikki, and lack of experience with steel boats, I think the question of inspection of the bilge, engine, and under the sole areas should be referred to the experienced professional marine surveyor who knows steel boats.

My suggestion? Nikki should find a good surveyor.

Secondly, but before paying for a survey, Nikki could find someone local who really knows steel boats to go visit the boat with Nikki. This does not have to be a pro surveyor. Perhaps an experience steel boat owner could be enticed if compensated some way. The point being to get a third party, with experience with steel boats, to get inside the boat with Nikki. This does not mean a full blown survey. I mean a short, but good walk through and look, with someone with experience.

From what I can see in the photos at the brokers site, this looks like a nicely designed and very good condition steel boat. I have looked at many steel boats in the UK, online only of course, and this one looks very nice compared to most at that price level. In fact, if I was there, I would go in order to see it.

I did not realised how overwhelmed I am getting... I have not been this exited since passing my Dive Master exams on the Barrier Reef

D'oh!! Brilliant idea

Is there anybody on here who would be willing to come and take a second look with me?
Maybe retire afterwards for a meal at The Cottage (the nice pub, next to the sailing school) to examine the findings? Not sure what the going rate is for this...
I am not up for publishing my phone number on here but will pm it when I find the right button on the site

[Nikki Pebble]

Originally Posted by jreiter190

After looking at the picture of Iris, I can see she's actually a staysail schooner with a big wheelhouse, which makes her a motorsailer.If the price is right and she has enough power to get out of trouble, go ahead and buy her and enjoy her. Hell, I always was a sucker for a schooner. Have a great time.

Thank you for the definitions.

She has a 30hp Volvo with new gearbox that the broker said was big enough to deal with the 'peccadillos' of the brutal tides and currents in the Channel. As I planned this I budgeted for 20 miles a day.

[jreiter190]

Nikki, I would happily, if I were in the U.K.,survey Iris for free or just for the meal and gam about schooners, steel boats, Dutch craftsmanship (I've owned two steel boats that I bought in Holland, a36' Tulla and a10 meter canal cruiser, a Curtevann), and vicariously enjoy your excitement and enthusiasm. Don't let anyone bum you out about steel; a long as you follow simple steps I was taught over 50 years ago in the U.S. NAVY, steel is dead easy to maintain, and, most importantly, repair! The secret is to have the ability to clear a whole section of the hull interior. In other words, in a steel hull, all cabinetry should be fastened to steel tabs, not tabbed with glass cloth to the hull as in grp construction. The paint is most likely epoxy applied after the surface is properly prepared. Any less is called"gun decking ";slapping paint to hide neglect.

[jreiter190]

Nikki,last word out of me. I read the link you had to the couple who bought the kindly old couples' boat and the horrors they went through and the somewhat happy ending. I can sympathize with your difficult decision. With any vessel, if you can't conduct a meaningful survey, don't proceed further. Bummer! Good luck in your search.

[Compass790]

Nikki, just some further ideas. The best paint for steel that I've used is coal tar epoxy. That is riddled with nasty chemicals as well. I'm a boilermaker-welder by trade & it's easier for me to deal with steel ( technically) but as I said in an earlier post I much prefer GRP/FRP. ( I helped build a 65ft steel schooner & sailed on it frm NZ to San Francisco) Good idea about how you mount the cabinetry in earlier post but my response is if you buy a grp you never have to remove the cabinetry for painting. Discussing yacht design & hull materials is a bit like discussing wives&guns&cars, you are going to get a wide range of opinions.
The other suggestion is crew on a wide range of designs if you can & ask the owners about them. All the best.

[Nikki Pebble]

Once again, many thanks for replying to me

My profile is now fleshed out a little more.

[Compass790]

Another idea for you Nikki is to buy a book called the complete illustrated sailboat maintenance manual by Don Casey. ( I dont have any association with the author ) Probly costs between 30-40 pounds but I found it paid for itself almost instantly. It has a section on buying a used sailboat which can save you many surveyors fees. It is primarily concerned with GRP boats so wont be as useful if your heart is set on steel but it still has more than enough in it to make it worthwhile.
If you have any questions you can pm me & if you want to have a conversation about what you are trying to do I will give you my Skype. I think a bit of cruising is a great thing to do & am happy to pass on what my experiences have taught me & am willing to say I dont know if I dont. Dont know the UK boat market at all.
I wish you all the best with your boat hunt.

[micah719]

The horror article listed somewhere above, where the couple bought a boat based on surveyor's recommendation, mentioned ultrasound testing. I see such a tool as valuable for the boat owner as well and will be purchasing one. Which model, I dunno yet. It will also come in useful for helping fellow cruisers.

Ultrasound gives precise measure of hull-plate thickness - Professional Mariner - December/January 2013

Measuring Metal Thickness Through Paint

[Compass790]

My 10c worth.Not sure how easy they are to read. Note well the necessity to remove the paint to get an accurate reading. I'm very familiar with the idea of ultrasound testing as they use it for weld testing which I'm a subject of. My experience dates from 4-5 years ago & given the advances in electronics it may not apply but I feared the possibilty of failing a weld test much more from ultrasound than x-rays. I suspect although the operators played up their skill level 4-5 years ago they will be much more user friendly now. The difficulty you might face is removing the paint from the test areas which was a necessity then. My guess would be to insist on it but an ultrasonic testing forum would be the place to get opinions.
Hope that helps. paul

[Nikki Pebble]

Hi Compass, Thank you for the book recommendation. I have ordered it and should receive it in a week or so.