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MarkJ · 19-04-2017, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsc7

and am not a lawyer but I am experienced in the courtroom

.

Which side of the dock?

☺

jsc7 · 19-04-2017, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidhoy

You might want to read this - Derelict, Abandoned & At Risk Vessels. Yes, it's specific to Florida, but is probably indicative of similar laws in other states. You cannot just claim ownership of an abandoned vessel, it takes a lengthy process.

I have seen some of those state laws. The idea is to scare off private individuals and try to abrogate the money to the state. This might work with cars, but for ships, US admiralty law takes precedence because the Constitution gives to the Federal government the right to regulate the waterways of the United States and its territories.

Therefore, the state laws in respect to maritime salvage in most cases are trumped by US Federal admiralty law. If Florida actually tried to prosecute a salvor for "theft", my guess is that the case would get thrown out immediately.

I did a quick search to try and find out if the State of Florida actually ever tried to prosecute a captain for "theft" in a salvage situation, and could find no instances. If you know of such a case, I would be interested to know what it was. I think if a cop brought such a case to the DA, the DA would tell him to drop it immediately. A lot of states have fake laws that they never enforce, but they keep on the books to try to intimidate people, usually for monetary purposes.

**Wotname** · 19-04-2017, 19:44

Guys, you are missing the point (question?) the OP is making.

The correct protocol to demand the captain to make his presence known is simply come along side and without boarding the vessel, proceed to take it under tow.

Once safely under tow, the captain of the towed vessel will present him/her self and welcome to you come aboard so you can retrieve the remnants of your tow gear.

This is how it worked for me every time I failed to show myself on the high seas when demanded and I'm sure that all of you with significant offshore seatime have had the same experience.

Disclaimer: I'm not a maritime lawyer but some mates are...

**skipmac** · 19-04-2017, 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsc7

I suspect I know US admiralty law better than you do.

And you did not answer the question. The question is: what is the proper way to summon a captain to the helm to determine if a ship is under the control of a crew or not? (The presumption of the question is that the vessel is drifting and not under power, and noone is visible on the bridge or deck.)

The question has been answered. There is NO legal protocol for this, only common sense. If you hail a boat and the captain chooses not to appear you cannot force him/her to do so.

**skipmac** · 19-04-2017, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Which side of the dock?

☺

As usual MarkJ appears in a nick of time with appropriate comic relief.

justwaiting · 19-04-2017, 20:18

WOW, taking an "adrift and unhelmed" boat under tow off the coast of Florida. Check the law relating to landing unauthorized immigrants and or drugs.

Or is it a "derelict" boat that is to be towed with 2 inches of barnacles, lines hanging off the side and 6 inches of water sloshing around the bilge.

Stumble · 19-04-2017, 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsc7

I have seen some of those state laws. The idea is to scare off private individuals and try to abrogate the money to the state. This might work with cars, but for ships, US admiralty law takes precedence because the Constitution gives to the Federal government the right to regulate the waterways of the United States and its territories.

Therefore, the state laws in respect to maritime salvage in most cases are trumped by US Federal admiralty law. If Florida actually tried to prosecute a salvor for "theft", my guess is that the case would get thrown out immediately.

I did a quick search to try and find out if the State of Florida actually ever tried to prosecute a captain for "theft" in a salvage situation, and could find no instances. If you know of such a case, I would be interested to know what it was. I think if a cop brought such a case to the DA, the DA would tell him to drop it immediately. A lot of states have fake laws that they never enforce, but they keep on the books to try to intimidate people, usually for monetary purposes.

So I am a lawyer, I know what I am talking about, and you clearly have zero concept what you are trying to describe. I would be more than happy to write an explanation of the law if you would like just PM me and we can discuss my rates.

I am not even going to try and explain all the ways you are wrong. But both Florida and Federal salvage law applies. I would suggest doing some research on something called concurrent jurisdiction, the difference between abandoned and derelict, and maritime peril.

jsc7 · 19-04-2017, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumble

So I am a lawyer, I know what I am talking about, and you clearly have zero concept what you are trying to describe. I would be more than happy to write an explanation of the law if you would like just PM me and we can discuss my rates.

I am not even going to try and explain all the ways you are wrong. But both Florida and Federal salvage law applies. I would suggest doing some research on something called concurrent jurisdiction, the difference between abandoned and derelict, and maritime peril.

You don't need to tell me all the ways I am wrong.

You just need to cite a Florida case in which a salvor was prosecuted for theft.

**Jim Cate** · 19-04-2017, 20:33

Ya know, I think we have been trolled...

Jim

Calif.Ted · 19-04-2017, 20:51

Yes you are correct just pull up and say "Show yourself or I'm claiming your vessel while you nap in the name of Admiralty Law" then throw your tow line on, you sure do know admiralty law, no foolin you.

**Adelie** · 19-04-2017, 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsc7

You don't need to tell me all the ways I am wrong.

You just need to cite a Florida case in which a salvor was prosecuted for theft.

I suspect it is more complex than that. A normal salvor would be leery of pushing the envelope on salvage.

On the other hand there are probably plenty of folks that would try to use salvage law as a pretext to take a boat who's status was indeterminate and the prosecutors would happily prosecute. Fortunately those people don't tend to be bright enough to go that route.

jsc7 · 19-04-2017, 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adelie

I suspect it is more complex than that. A normal salvor would be leery of pushing the envelope on salvage.

On the other hand there are probably plenty of folks that would try to use salvage law as a pretext to take a boat who's status was indeterminate and the prosecutors would happily prosecute. Fortunately those people don't tend to be bright enough to go that route.

If a boat is drifting and unmanned, it is sufficient grounds for towing (salvaging) it. That is my understanding of Federal admiralty law. It is true that a couple of states, including Florida, have laws that could be construed as forbidding a private person from salvaging vessels (at all) even if they are abandoned and drifting. I suspect those laws are likely unconstitutional and consequently are never actually used. If that is not true, and boaters who have towed a derelict vessel in Florida have actually been prosecuted, I would be interested to know about those cases, because it would be legally educational for me, and I think useful to know from a seamanship point of view how to handle maritime distress situations.

**StuM** · 19-04-2017, 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsc7

Well, actually it is a demand, because if ship is unhelmed then the approaching ship that is under command can take it for their own possession as salvage, so if the skipper of the ghost ship is present he MUST appear and demonstrate command, otherwise the ship may be put in tow and the owner will lose it. (note that the (ex-?)owner might be different than the skipper)

My question is what is the proper and legal way to demand the captain appear before seizing the ship for salvage.

Absolute rubbish. Where did you dream that up?

Stumble · 19-04-2017, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsc7

You don't need to tell me all the ways I am wrong.

You just need to cite a Florida case in which a salvor was prosecuted for theft.

I charge $250/hr for legal research. Feel free to pm me to set up a retainer agreement if you want a legal opinion.

For free I a man happy to just tell you that you are wrong.