Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

View Poll Results: Poll: How Young? vs Freedom?
Any Age… Parents and their young sailor have that right to decide 37 52.11%
Any Age… Provided that young sailor passes independent evaluation by sailing experts and child psychologists of their readiness. 8 11.27%
Age 18… Minimum departure Age 16 22.54%
Age 16… Minimum departure Age 10 14.08%
Age 14… Minimum departure Age 0 0%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-09-2009, 21:16   #61
Senior Cruiser
 
osirissail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: A real life Zombie from FL
Boat: Gulfstar 53 - Osiris
Posts: 5,416
Images: 2
As I said - What is a child? Who decides what age a child becomes an adult? We send 18y.o. children off the fight wars yet they are too young to consume alcohol as they don't become Adult until 21 y.o. Are all "children" absolutely equal in their development that you can assign one "magic age number" and declare everybody under that limit a child who is not responsible and anybody over that "age" is a responsible adult? I abhor the idea of "cookie cutter" laws and regulations. What ever happened to individual responsibility and freedom. Are you your brother's keeper?
__________________

__________________
osirissail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 21:26   #62
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,895
Orissail… I do not think any one person is qualified to answer your questions, but general world consensus about child labor or sex laws puts the line around 16.

Many argue it should be higher, few argue it should be lower. So I took that as my guidance when I voted in this poll.

The appropriate question is: “Are we a Child’s keeper?”
__________________

__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 21:44   #63
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,152
Eventually the world will get it that maybe its not such a good idea to be sending their children out on the ocean alone. Like most things though, a person or two will have to die before a change is made.
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 21:48   #64
Moderator... short for Cat Wrangler
 
sarafina's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Cal 28 Flush Deck
Posts: 5,559
Images: 56
The appropriate question is: “Are we a Child’s keeper?”

My gut instinct is yes.

The good news is that we are so successful as a species that it really matters not at all if the occasional individual departs this earth before its appointed time. Conceivably it could be argued that all such mortalities are just really successful Darwin award candidates.

I however will be husbanding my little corner of the gene pool and will not be allowing my daughter to drive after dark, let alone sail off in a 34' boat...

And it's interesting to me that in a world where life is lost for all sorts of horrid reasons; famine, disease, violence, and we all manage, for the most part to ignore it, this situation touches our sense of concern and community so deeply. I wonder why...
__________________
Sara

ain't what ya do, it's the way that ya do it...
sarafina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 21:59   #65
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
To clarify:......

Let me be the devil’s advocate here and ask the question:

What if in this Poll instead of setting Minimum Age Limits for:
Single Handed non-stop sailing Circumnavigation around the World

Was instead about… setting Minimum Age Limits for:

  • A person willingly working full time to advance their prospects?…or
  • A person willingly deciding to have sex to consummate their love of another?

Obviously there are historically endless documentations of child abuse in these more common examples.

Why is “Freedom of Choice” in those cases ignored? Simply because of the large numbers that confirms to Society the real need for protection?
I suspect it is a case of numbers; just as one swallow doesn't make a summer, one (or even several) bad parental decisions shouldn't dictate policy for all. To my mind, what is wrong with a child dying due to a poor parental decision. Even if say 10 children died due to such sea encounters, this would have no effect on the prospects of the rest of the 6 billion people around. OK, say 10,000 children died, this could effect Society and enlightened leaders should make rational laws for the greater good.

BTW, I don't want Jessica (or any other child) to be harmed but if that was to happen, I can't see a rational argument to suggest Society needs to change to account for one individual. Let evolution do it's thing and notify the keepers of the Darwinian Awards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I argue that Society still has that responsibility to protect a child regardless of how rarified and romantic the privilege of a solo circumnavigation presents itself.

That an Age Limit needs to be set by Society.

Good Debate!
I would argue that Society keeps it's collective nose out it. It is the parent's responsibility to protect a child. If they fail, the child fails. I would argue it's nature's way and key to our survival (to date).

However, if too many children are hurt or injured (and not necessarily dying), this also affects the quality of our Society and thus Society then has the responsibility to protect them in order to protect itself.

It seems to me that Society has made reasonable judgments to date with respects to ages and limitations. A handful of more extreme events should not alter that.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 22:02   #66
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
Eventually the world will get it that maybe its not such a good idea to be sending their children out on the ocean alone. Like most things though, a person or two will have to die before a change is made.
If I could only learn to be as succinct as David M
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 22:17   #67
Registered User
 
roger.waite's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Plimmerton, New Zealand
Boat: Samsara, a Ross 930
Posts: 380
Agree with David. IMHO.

Having had a lot of freedom to kill myself in boats as a kid, its hard to say when exactly enough is enough. I learnt a lot the day I almost killed myself. And it has stood me in good stead for many years. But I know my parents regretted their choices over the days that they believed I had died.

Perhaps one question is whether all parents are qualified to judge their child's abilities and best interests, irrespective of whether they know what they plan for the child.
__________________
roger.waite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 22:32   #68
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,895
Numbers

Seems to me that as Sara laments and Wotname defends … what I would call a “pragmatic response” to setting Age limits for solo circumnavigation.

…. It takes sheer numbers to affect social conditions, so Society should only get involved when the number of child damages becomes significant… (to society)

Since putting a child at risk to achieve ANY “Youngest to…” record is by definition a very rare occurrence, society is not affected, therefore should not get involved.

Sorry, I have trouble buying in to that.


Should we as a wise and caring collective, not at least agree to an age guideline?
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 22:36   #69
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger.waite View Post
.........
Perhaps one question is whether all parents are qualified to judge their child's abilities and best interests, irrespective of whether they know what they plan for the child.
Immaterial; parents are not qualified - ever. But they have the responsibility.

This thread does have me thinking though. I have always taken the line of its ONLY the parents responsibility but perhaps this is because I have only known large societies. In a small group (small tribe etc) perhaps the survival of the group depends more on its collective children than a large society and therefore different forces come into play.

Still thinking..........
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 22:55   #70
Registered User
 
marting's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Live aboard. Gold Coast QLD
Boat: Nauticat 44
Posts: 31
Images: 6
You must be at least 14 years old to play in a pro Women’s tournament
Playing tennis is far less dangerous than solo sailing around the world.
I personally don’t have any opinion on this kind of decision because I do not have enough evidence or skills to form one. I do believe that we should be fair to all sporting and thrill seekers and have a level playing field for all.
__________________
marting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 23:02   #71
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
..... the number of child damages becomes significant… (to society)

Since putting a child at risk to achieve ANY “Youngest to…” record is by definition a very rare occurrence, society is not affected, therefore should not get involved.

Sorry, I have trouble buying in to that.
I can understand that; however, it seems that children at put a risk continually (and in large numbers) all around the world and we don't care enough to do anything about it. I suggest that this instance (Jessica et al) concerns us at CF because it potentially threatens our sailing freedom, not because we care about risks to children. Perhaps I am too pragmatic / cynical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Should we as a wise and caring collective, not at least agree to an age guideline?
It appears we already have a legal age (16) set in some states of Aus. for the operation of vessel fitted with a > 6 HP engine. Sounds like a good starting point.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 23:04   #72
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,895
Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
Eventually the world will get it that maybe its not such a good idea to be sending their children out on the ocean alone. Like most things though, a person or two will have to die before a change is made.
Hi David,

No one will argue that what you say is in reality a “self fulfilling prophecy”… and I feel a sad comment on those who choose to remain uninvolved and let things unfold.

I am not talking about a one day or 5 day controlled risk, but months of un-chaperoned risk to a minor.

We experienced Cruising sailors ARE the “Elder Brethren” in this debate.

I believe our voices of experience and what constitutes a safe age, for this kind of solo event, needs to be heard, by those of influence… to help quantify a measured response to stop the younger/youngest trend.

If you consider this from a purely selfish position…. Sailors are a pro-active lot and seeing the failed future of allowing these unregulated age solo attempts to continue….

….is it not in our best interest to stop this madness by some "reality show inspired" individuals....before we give governments the excuse to over regulate sailing for everyone?
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 00:18   #73
Registered User
 
swagman's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Winter land based UK New Forest. Summer months away. Making the transition from sail to power this year - scary stuff.
Boat: Super Van Craft 1320 Power Yacht
Posts: 2,175
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to swagman
I did not vote. IMHO nothing wrong with a team of youngsters going on this kind of adventure, nothing wrong with a solo sailor of any age going around the world port to port and experiencing all the world can offer.

It is the solo sailing 24/7 enforcing isolation on a youngster and with no watch system that can work as safely as it should, that really bugs me.

1. Solo non stop circumnavigation means it is impossible to maintain adequate watches so as to comply with maritime regs. Why do officals ignore this breach and allow anyone, including the big name racers, to do this. Each creates a danger for themselves and selfishly, others.

2. Encouraging anyone to spend months in isolation is something you'll recall they did in prison camps! So why think it might actually make a solo sailor them a better person, especially when still growing up? I'd have hoped anyone under 18 got the best chance to develop social skills by being with real people.

3. Why does anyone believe that by circumnavigating non stop one benefits by seeing other parts of the world? You see the sea. And you return.

Maybe sounds like I am a sour puss - and I'm sorry for that, but if in this case if any inquiry finds this skipper at fault, it might ground her - and then maybe discourage this kind of activity by others.

Fingers crossed on my boat.

Cheers

JOHN
__________________
Don't take life too seriously. No ones going to make it out alive......Go see our blog at http://www.sailblogs.com/member/yachtswagman/
swagman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 01:49   #74
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagman View Post
.........

1. Solo non stop circumnavigation means it is impossible to maintain adequate watches so as to comply with maritime regs. Why do officals ignore this breach and allow anyone, including the big name racers, to do this. Each creates a danger for themselves and selfishly, others.
Reasonable point. I expect it has to do with two aspects.
1. Very hard to enforce and the "offense" usually takes place in international waters.
2. The victim of the "crime" is usually the perpetrator. Laws are designed mainly to protect society from the actions of individuals, not for protecting a person from their own actions.
I think the number incidents of single handers causing any real damage or danger to others due to watch keeping issues would be very very small. IMO there is no real public benefit in doing so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagman View Post
.......but if in this case if any inquiry finds this skipper at fault, it might ground her - and then maybe discourage this kind of activity by others.
My guess that any inquiry will have pretty neutral finding. Not saying this should be so, just my guess on what will be so.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2009, 02:16   #75
Registered User
 
swagman's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Winter land based UK New Forest. Summer months away. Making the transition from sail to power this year - scary stuff.
Boat: Super Van Craft 1320 Power Yacht
Posts: 2,175
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to swagman
Hi Wotname,

Not sure I agree with your points. Mine are -

1. Surely easy to enforce when a solo sailor departs a country? Easier still to enforce when they return - especially if returning in a blaze of media coverage?

2. IMHO lots of other good regulations protect people against self harm. And if this lass harms herself in the southern ocean - someone else is likely to pick up the risk of rescuing her.

Any stats anywhere on how many people get hurt / waste resources saving solo sailors? I invariable read about solo more than multiple person crews............

I believe that such activity (solo/non stop/age record related) does nothing for anyone other than to boster the anti gov / freedom exponents, but it is illegal, invariably costs someone else (ie Oz taxpayers will pay for this inquiry), likely to harm the young persons social development, and all for what? So the parents or her can brag about a record for a month or so, until another youngster / parent combo repeats the show??

Rant over. Thanks for the poll and debate.

Enjoy
JOHN
__________________

__________________
Don't take life too seriously. No ones going to make it out alive......Go see our blog at http://www.sailblogs.com/member/yachtswagman/
swagman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
poll

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Freedom Yachts Mule Monohull Sailboats 48 01-09-2016 11:34
freedom 30 esse0esse Monohull Sailboats 0 15-01-2008 20:06
Freedom 35 sailboat ljsanz Meets & Greets 3 08-07-2007 20:01
Young Dog djakunda Families, Kids and Pets Afloat 0 04-05-2003 11:34



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.