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Old 27-03-2017, 17:35   #1
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Poling a Genoa advice please

Hi.
I'm new here and relatively new to sailing. And still learning the terminology.
I have questions about poling a genoa, (and eventually a spinaker.)
What advantages does it have over not poling?
I have a spinaker downhaul, a jib halyard and, I assume, a spinaker halyard or uphaul.
I am guessing that I would go about it this way.
Use spinaker halyard as the uphaul and attach the downhaul.
Attach the spinaker pole to the loop in the leward sheet bowline at the clew and other end to the mast. I only have a fixed point to attach to.
Sheet on as required.
set spinaker pole level with up and downhaul.
I have watched a few videos and they have just confused me even more.

I was able to get the No.1 to fly the other day in about 5+ knots without poling.

Thanks
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Old 27-03-2017, 17:51   #2
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

Poling out your genoa when sailing downwind helps get the clew out away from the boat, giving you more projected area, and keeping the sail drawing instead of collapsing intermittently when you're not paying enough attention. In the right conditions you can also pole it out on the same side as the main, which can give you better sail shape for reaching and a surprising increase in speed. You referred to a #1 genoa, in which case a regular spinnaker pole, whose length is limited by racing rules, might not really be long enough for what you want. For that a telescoping whisker pole might be better ($). In the picture the clew of your genoa looked pretty low, like below the lifelines, so you might want to experiment some with a borrowed pole to see how your sail shape works out before laying out bucks for your own equipment. In my experience, a pole lift is usually helpful, but a downhaul is not really necessary.
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Old 27-03-2017, 17:53   #3
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

Use two downhauls, one forward and one aft, together with one uphaul. This creates a three-point attachment that will allow you to position the pole at the right height and a foot or so forward of the shrouds. You don't want the pole to be able to swing fore and aft (like it will do with only one downhaul and one uphaul). With the genoa rolled in (or on the deck I guess if hank on, although I really don't know), pass the jib sheet through the end of the pole then attach the other end to the attachment point on the front of the mast at the right height. The pole might be resting on your lifelines and back against the shroud. Use the uphaul to raise the pole up to the right height, then the forward downhaul to pull the pole forward about a foot or so. Both downhauls should pass through blocks or something like that (I think I even use a stanchion base or a shackle on the toe rail) and be led aft to the cockpit if possible (I'm a center cockpit Morgan so not as far to go). When the forward downhaul is made fast, use the aft downhaul to tension the pole aftwards, so it is locked in place. Then, furl out the jib (or raise it I guess).

Now, do all this in a sloppy 6' seaway in too light winds offshore and sail downwind for a week or so. I used this rig to sail from St. Martin to Miami, and then from Key West to Galveston. Worked great, especially with just the mizzen up (my main blankets the jib sometimes, especially in lighter winds.

I carried a pole for over 5 years of cruising without using it before someone walked me through the steps above. Once I understood how to lock the pole in place, the rig worked great and really made off wind sailing way more fun.

Best of luck.

SV Liberty, now docked in Seabrook, Texas (but can't wait to get back out there again)
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Old 27-03-2017, 17:57   #4
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

"In my experience, a pole lift is usually helpful, but a downhaul is not really necessary."

When I tried this, the pole would swing fore and aft as the boat rolled in a following sea, especially in lighter or fluky winds, even to the point of bouncing off the shrouds. The idea of a sharp swing back into a shroud that could cause an offshore calamity, especially at night after many days at sea, is scary.
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Old 27-03-2017, 18:13   #5
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

You're right, in light winds and a seaway you would want a downhaul. I (perhaps mistakenly) assumed the OP was starting out in sheltered waters.
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Old 27-03-2017, 18:42   #6
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

When using a pole on a job or genoa the goal is stability which allows better flow and boat speed. It also gives better control.
For stability you need three lines on the pole. These are typically the topping lift ( uphaul ) , foreguy ( downhaul ) and jib sheet.
Again, typically, on a boat less than 35 feet or so the topping lift goes to a ring on a bridle that goes between the outboard and inboard ends of the pole.
The foreguy runs from another bridle to the bow and then aft.
The jib sheet goes into the pole jaw. Just the sheet, not the bowline loop.

On a larger boat or on a pole without bridles the topping lift and foreguy may go to the outboard end of the pole.

The pole jaw should face down. This is for many reasons. If the jib sheet is eased tripping the pole ( opening the jaw) allows the sheet to quickly drop free.
The reason for avoiding the bowline loop is similar. Easing the jib sheet lets the jib fly freely. This means you can drop or furl the jib without dealing with the pole first.

The height of the outboard end of the pole controls the leech tension. Raising the outbiard end allows the upper part of the leach to twist forward. Lowering it trims the leech in.
When sailing wing and wing, close to dead down wind, the fastest point of sail is when the jib is sailing by the lee with the flow from leech to luff. This is because the main no longer blankets the jib and both sails draw.
This is also safer than having the main by the lee.

Have fun and mess around!!
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Old 27-03-2017, 19:05   #7
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

Hopefully you meant " the pole jaw should face up" i.e. pin on top.
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Old 27-03-2017, 19:30   #8
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

The neatest system I have used had a permanent rope bridle made to measure that had a loop near the middle that slipped over the beak and had measured length foreguys and afterguys that looped over the midships cleat and samson post.

We would set it up, hook on the topping lift, run the lazy jib sheet through the beak then lift the pole quickly into position with the topping lift. And unroll or gybe the headsail into position.

The nice thing about this setup was the pole ended up in exactly the right place every time, and its locked in place so it can't bang about or get out of control.

If the beak faces down (as in the pin is at the bottom) its easy to release the unloaded sheet by just pulling the pin lanyard and you get less chafe typically, as the sail pulls up into the smoother beak not the pin.

Sometimes on longer runs I will tie in a lazy sheet that I run through the beak, this reduces chafe on the good sheets and means I can drop the sail off the pole without having to gybe it across or relead the lazy sheet back to windward.

With a 110% or less jib you can even leave the pole set to leeward and use it like a barberhauler with the lazy sheet to open out the slot, and control twist when reaching.
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Old 27-03-2017, 19:36   #9
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

Pin down is not a good idea. You will get lots of jams on release.
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Old 27-03-2017, 19:54   #10
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

Quote:
Originally Posted by savoir View Post
Pin down is not a good idea. You will get lots of jams on release.
This depends on how you release it. If you are releasing it under load sure, its far easier pin up as the sail lift away from the pole. But if you roll away the sail or gybe it (or use a lazy sheet) so the sheet in the pole is unloaded it will just drop out by gravity when you trip the pole. With a headsail on a pole I prefer pin down. A kite pin up, but each to their own.
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Old 27-03-2017, 21:25   #11
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

Thanks Everyone for the quick replies.

Lots of food for thought. And some ideas that I will have to read over a few times so I can understand them.

I have an Endeavour 26. Only do day trips for now on the lake near me. Lake Macquarie. Big enough for me right now. But it does seem to be getting smaller every time I sail.

Yes the clew is close to the deck. So this could cause a problem.

I have a No.1,2,3 and storm headsails. I am guessing i would only ever pole the 1 & 2?

I think I will try this one from dfelsent - "Again, typically, on a boat less than 35 feet or so the topping lift goes to a ring on a bridle that goes between the outboard and inboard ends of the pole.
The foreguy runs from another bridle to the bow and then aft.
The jib sheet goes into the pole jaw. Just the sheet, not the bowline loop."
As it best describes what I have. It will also be how I do my spinnaker?

If the pole is too short, and I think it will work, I might make longer ones from spinnaker jaws and aluminium tubing to match the No.1 & 2.

Cheers
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Old 28-03-2017, 03:04   #12
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

I reckon I use the spinnaker pole supplied with the boat rather than a proper whisker pole. The pole is the same length as the distance from the mast to the base of the forestay. On my 150% genoa, that's a little too short to get a perfect set

I really only use it when I'm trying to sail wing on wing. I place the boat so that the wind is 30 degrees off DDW. This stops the main from collapsing but the genoa invariably ends up a flapping mess. Poling it out encourages the genoa to hold a shape and actually might even contribute to propulsion. It's not something I do in winds above 12 knots as i don't think that the boat is stable enough with so much sail area forward. In these light winds I only use an uphaul and also push the sheet fairlead as far forward as possible. This allows me to trim and does tend to hold the clew down. This makes removing the pole and returning to normal sailing fairly simple.
The uphaul makes it easy to manage the pole as you lift and lower it and reduces a lot of the risks of going forward. To change over, go forward, pull the pin release line, remove the pole from the mast then the sheet if it hasn't already separated, turn he pole and lower it to the deck using the uphaul, go back to the cockpit, gybe or tack as you need and retrim the sails
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Old 28-03-2017, 03:33   #13
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

Whatever you do, make sure all lines are knot free. If not you''ll risking to roll on a gust. The same applies for the spy, so you can let it fly free instead of having your mast in the water
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Old 28-03-2017, 04:27   #14
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

Quote:
Originally Posted by savoir View Post
Hopefully you meant " the pole jaw should face up" i.e. pin on top.
yes up.

Thanks
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Old 28-03-2017, 07:01   #15
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Re: Poling a Genoa advice please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariano View Post
Whatever you do, make sure all lines are knot free. If not you''ll risking to roll on a gust. The same applies for the spy, so you can let it fly free instead of having your mast in the water
Knew a couple of brothers that loved this setup for downwind on their J24 and never minded my advice. A few years ago they went on a night passage from Buenos Aires to Colonia and got caught in a sudden blow with the genoa on a pole, one man on deck and two sleeping inside.

Long story short: rolled and barelly made it and waited all night grabbed to a channel bouy untill a fisherman found them with hypothermia, still looking for the boat, never found even a cushion.

Leaving this sad story aside, it's a great setup for DDW, but you've got to get used to it, rolling constantly, and with one hand next to the genoa sheet ready to let it go............and the other next to the wheel in case you have to give in a hurry
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