Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by Polux

Don't understand your point. The subject is pretty simple: it is safer to reef a boat, main mad mainsail from the cockpit or it is safer to go to the mast to do that?

It seems to me the answer is straightforward being the only drawback the risk of jamming that can eventually but rarely happen on an in mast furling main since roller furllers for forward sails are pretty much bullet prof if well used.

Jamming problems don't happen if you use what is called automatic one line furling that is a pretty straight forward system and even if something does not work you only have to reef it the "old" way.

So what is the point? Do you think it is safer to go to the mast in the middle of a storm for reffing than to do it from the cockpit? I don't get it.

Sorry for confusion. I think it is safer to be in the cockpit BUT I think one needs to be comfortable on the deck of the boat. VERY comfortable with one's own abilities, work arounds, and the boat in a range of conditions (thus my Pete Goss reference in an earlier post) before one limits oneself to the cockpit.

Once limited by the imaginary "it's so unsafe out there on the deck" thought, the dread of going there can get big, HUGE, for an inexperienced sailor, IMO. If a person has a lot of experience sailing and working the foredeck in a range of conditions, they WILL be able to leave the cockpit if something goes wrong with their cockpit-run reefing system. If they don't have enough experience, they'll be stuck in their cockpit with dread over nothing. All IMO of course.

PS -- on my boat we inspect the rig every few hours. That requires a stroll (or crawl) around the deck outside the cockpit. The last thing we want is a rig failure because we weren't taking note. During these inspections I've found a bit of chafe here and there, a hank off the forestay, etc. So getting out on the deck--even when it's crappy is sometimes needed. We do tend to go longer between inspections during heavy weather because its just so hard to be on deck.

[boatman61]

And.. if the Gooseneck goes in a blow.. just sitting/staying in the cockpit avails you nothing whatsoever..

[s/v Jedi]

Although I have picked up anchor and sail off at 35kts, I do agree with Phil that this is not to be recommended for passages. For training heavy weather sailing after first doing this in 20-25-30 kts until all goes smoothly for each step, is okay in my book.

Also, one must realise that the boat makes a lot of difference; not just how big it is, also the type of boat. Sailing Jedi in 40 kts is much like sailing a 42' mass production boat in 30 kts. I have sailed a Dehler 42 for a couple of years and it did fine in 30 kts but couldn't be reefed down enough for 35 kts.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Although I have picked up anchor and sail off at 35kts, I do agree with Phil that this is not to be recommended for passages. For training heavy weather sailing after first doing this in 20-25-30 kts until all goes smoothly for each step, is okay in my book.

Also, one must realise that the boat makes a lot of difference; not just how big it is, also the type of boat. Sailing Jedi in 40 kts is much like sailing a 42' mass production boat in 30 kts. I have sailed a Dehler 42 for a couple of years and it did fine in 30 kts but couldn't be reefed down enough for 35 kts.

I agree with the first part but don't understand what you say regarding the Dehler. Production boats have most of the time only two reefs on the main but if you know that you will be using it on harder winds you have only to ask for a 3th small reef to be mounted or if you buy it used to do that yourself. I have done so in all my boats being them bought new or used.

Besides, unless you have mounted a big Genoa on that Dehler (that is an inadequate sail for heavy weather) modern sailboats sail very well with only a jib, that can be furled for winds over 30K. After 40k it is convenient to change to storm sails, not because the boat don't sail well with just a furled jib but because the forces may damage the sail that is not built for those winds.

Here you have a modern production boat with an overall stability worse than a Dehler 43? going very well with winds well over 40K, and a lot of sail out. The state of the sea is no relevant for the quantity of sail that can be flied on that wind. On heavier seas normally more sail can be used than on flat seas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGIUy0mp0JU

And here you have a performance boat, smaller and lighter than the Dehler 43? going well close upwind with 45K winds with a frontal storm sail and a reefed main. They are training for sailing in heavy weather and to sail fast. A cruiser would be flying less sail and going not as fast but more comfortably.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzhF...8hiWMDHAuRdR3Q

That is a Beneteau Figaro II, a 32ft small racing boat that is not very different in what regards stability to a performance cruiser like Dehler, except obviously that the Dehler 43, 41? is a bigger and heavier boat and more able to sail with more wind, the same way your 62ft boat will be able to sail in more wind than the Dehler 43 before bare poles are needed.

Regarding the Dehler 42 are you not mistaken? I do not know any Dehler 42 except the last year model. Dehler had 39, 41 and 43 models but not any 42 that I know off.
Sailboats built by Dehler Yachts by year on Sailboatdata.com

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery

I notice there are a lot of folks questioning why someone would be out in 35kts or more. I don't second guess the voyaging plans of other folks.

Winds along the Pacific coast from San Francisco northwards are often blowing 30 kts or more. Ports and anchorages are few and far. If the tides are favorable for leaving port and if the seas favorable for the trip then yeah leaving in 35kts may be the best action.

The sea state is really important not just the winds. The waves that travel across the pacific can make or break the comfort and safety of the trip. If one is deciding to go out with prevailing winds and seas that is far different than a set up with winds and seas at odds. We have waited in port for days on end because of seas. Yet we will only seriously wait out 30+kt winds if they're part of a bigger gale that will persist and could bring even worse seas with it.

I might feel differently if we were sailing different cruising grounds. There are no absolutes.

Yes I understand what you mean. You have a big and heavy boat and that only makes that the conditions were to be dangerous to go out of the cockpit will be a lot more rare than if you sailed on a smaller and lighter boat but not that they will not be meet if you try hard

No, understand what I mean regarding danger to go forward and look at this video at min 1.15 and you will understand what I mean

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7Bh-ejfCC0

[boatman61]

Polux... That's sailing.. can't hack it.. don't do it. especially if just for fame and glory.. wrong reasons and to much personal pressure.

[Kenomac]

I just got home from work and was quite surprised by the reaction of most to leaving for a passage in 30 knot winds and expecting 38 knots. We've sailing in these conditions many times without any difficulty... Our friends on other Oysters, Discovery and similar yachts have done the same. Fifty knots can certainly present a challenge, but.... 30-35 knots??

Hitting a white squall head on into 40 knots was difficult last summer... but we dealt with it. No Mayday or panic..... except for the first five minutes or so when I forgot to look down at the compass before turning 180 degrees downwind, that part was quite disorienting.... but not impossible. We made it back to a safe anchorage.

My wife and I agree that we would not have considered heading out in any weather blowing above 20-25 knots on our previous boat and would have also thought doing so to be reckless seamanship.... but that's the primary reason why we sold that boat.

If we always waited for perfect weather.... We'd never get anywhere.

Ken

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I just got home from work and was quite surprised by the reaction of most to leaving for a passage in 30 knot winds and expecting 38 knots. We've sailing in these conditions many times without any difficulty... Our friends on other Oysters, Discovery and similar yachts have done the same. Fifty knots can certainly present a challenge, but.... 30-35 knots??

Hitting a white squall head on into 40 knots was difficult last summer... but we dealt with it. No Mayday or panic..... except for the first five minutes or so when I forgot to look down at the compass before turning 180 degrees downwind, that part was quite disorienting.... but not impossible. We made it back to a safe anchorage.

My wife and I agree that we would not have considered heading out in any weather blowing above 20-25 knots on our previous boat and would have also thought doing so to be reckless seamanship.... but that's the primary reason why we sold that boat.

If we always waited for perfect weather.... We'd never get anywhere.

Ken

Where you were last season its usually 3 days NW blow 2 days good..

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Polux... That's sailing.. can't hack it.. don't do it. especially if just for fame and glory.. wrong reasons and to much personal pressure.

Driving my Ferrari at 150mph down the public highway with the top down. Now... that was stupid and reckless.

Sailing a boat in 30 knot winds... mundane in comparison to the "E Ticket" rides in the Ferrari.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Polux

I agree with the first part but don't understand what you say regarding the Dehler. Production boats have most of the time only two reefs on the main but if you know that you will be using it on harder winds you have only to ask for a 3th small reef to be mounted or if you buy it used to do that yourself. I have done so in all my boats being them bought new or used.

Besides, unless you have mounted a big Genoa on that Dehler (that is an inadequate sail for heavy weather) modern sailboats sail very well with only a jib, that can be furled for winds over 30K. After 40k it is convenient to change to storm sails, not because the boat don't sail well with just a furled jib but because the forces may damage the sail that is not built for those winds.

Here you have a modern production boat with an overall stability worse than a Dehler 43? going very well with winds well over 40K, and a lot of sail out. The state of the sea is no relevant for the quantity of sail that can be flied on that wind. On heavier seas normally more sail can be used than on flat seas.

And here you have a performance boat, smaller and lighter than the Dehler 43? going well close upwind with 45K winds with a frontal storm sail and a reefed main. They are training for sailing in heavy weather and to sail fast. A cruiser would be flying less sail and going not as fast but more comfortably.

That is a Beneteau Figaro II, a 32ft small racing boat that is not very different in what regards stability to a performance cruiser like Dehler, except obviously that the Dehler 43, 41? is a bigger and heavier boat and more able to sail with more wind, the same way your 62ft boat will be able to sail in more wind than the Dehler 43 before bare poles are needed.

Regarding the Dehler 42 are you not mistaken? I do not know any Dehler 42 except the last year model. Dehler had 39, 41 and 43 models but not any 42 that I know off.
Sailboats built by Dehler Yachts by year on Sailboatdata.com

Thanks for explaining how to sail a boat. If it would have had a third reef, you think I would have missed it, or don't know about third reefs? You should read up a but about the boat I sail, it may open your eyes

So it was a Dehler 41, what does that matter? Why do you even go on Google to find out what boat I sailed? Here it is, check out the tides we have:

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Where you were last season its usually 3 days NW blow 2 days good..

We headed up the Corsica coast to Calvi with a seven day weather window of calm winds below 20 knots. Three days into it and a day after arriving in Calvi, the forecast changed as two storms descended on the Bonifacio strait from the west and another high wind system from the north towards Calvi. We didn't want to get stuck in Calvi for a week, and it looked like we could beat the first storm through the strait, but as everyone should know.... the forecasting is not perfect, and the storms were several hours ahead of the forecast and we got caught (the white squall).

The video was shot 36 hours later when we headed through the strait as the remnants of the two storms remained east of Corsica along the mainland coast near Rome.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Driving my Ferrari at 150mph down the public highway with the top down. Now... that was stupid and reckless.

Sailing a boat in 30 knot winds... mundane in comparison to the "E Ticket" rides in the Ferrari.

Thanks for proving my argument mate..
Luv ya..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Thanks for explaining how to sail a boat. If it would have had a third reef, you think I would have missed it, or don't know about third reefs? You should read up a but about the boat I sail, it may open your eyes

So it was a Dehler 41, what does that matter? Why do you even go on Google to find out what boat I sailed? Here it is, check out the tides we have:

If you are unable to sail a Dehler 41 in over 35k winds some explanations seemed to be needed

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Thanks for proving my argument mate..
Luv ya..

The Ferrari joyrides took place back in my 20's BC (before children)... when we were all young and stupid. But great memories if one is lucky enough to have survived.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Polux

If you are unable to sail a Dehler 41 in over 35k winds some explanations seemed to be needed

Jedi wrote that he would consider it reckless for others to cast off in those conditions without first obtaining the experience that he already had (eg. 20+, 25+, 30+ etc.).

At least that's how I interpreted his post.