Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

[Kenomac]

Phil,

It's OK for us to disagree on this topic.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Phil,

It's OK for us to disagree on this topic.

'Concordia...'!!

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Sailing in 30-35 knots of wind really isn't that hard to do or considered bad seamanship. How is someone supposed to learn how to handle gale or storm conditions if you never go out in winds that exceed 20-25 knots? Of course, it's good to work up to it as the Jedi Master suggests, but poor seamanship.... no.

Here's a short video of my wife at the helm in honest 40 knot conditions under bare poles with the engine running at 2000rps to charge the batteries on our way down the Coriscan coastline. We are moving along at 9 knots, which reduces the effective wind speed to 31 knots. Of course, sailing to windward would be an entirely different situation, but sailing along with the wind at our backs in 15ft seas, certainly can't be described as dangerous and poor seamanship.

I believe it's the folks without the proper experience or preparation who would be more likely to call in an unnecessary mayday when they get in a situation over their heads... than someone who has worked up to it. IMHO.

You can have 40K wind there but that are very benign sea conditions for 40k, not the type of sea that we would expect in a F8 almost F9 conditions. I had worse than that with 30/35k winds. Not always the wind correspond to the sea condition that many hours of that wind will rise.

Anyway I don't think boatman is saying that 30/35 k winds are not to be expected on a passage or that one that goes for a passage should not be prepared for that , what he said was " setting of on a voyage in 35kts plus is reckless.. and NOT good seamanship" and that was nothing to do with catching on a voyage 35K wind. Simply if you set off with 35k and a weather forecast of 35K for the voyage, the chances that conditions may worsen regarding that prevision are much bigger than if he set off with 20k and those. Those 35K can easily go to 50 k or over while if we are talking about 20k average wind on the weather forecast that can easily reach 35K but not easily 50K.

While 35K even considering bad sea conditions (for 35K) are manageable 50k, if the sea conditions are not benign, can create survival conditions.

Not much time ago the story of a Lagoon 39 that was capsized in 50/55K winds and 9 meters waves was revisited on this forum and I have seen lots of boats being abandoned on those conditions, that at the least will create very stressful condition for the boat and crew, sometimes for days.

Don't seem to me that set sailing having a reasonable probability of finding those conditions (50K) could be considered good seamanship.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by Polux

Having to go forward to the mast to reef sails on heavy weather is not the best solution regarding safety, ...and a lot of guys for doing that. Don't seem easy.

Nobody said sailing would always be easy. It's not. The solution of going forward to reef is best for safety from the perspective of less to go wrong rigging-mechanically and if a person is used to going forward to reef they won't be freaked out when they have to do so because something broke.

The unexpected thing I have noticed is when the wind is steady at anything above ... Oh. 35 kts it starts getting annoyingly difficult to do things. Still can work on deck safely tethered in but the word annoying describes it perfectly.

I don't start feeling unsafe or worried unless sea state is so rough that I am having a hard time not getting slammed around against things. My husband is much stronger than me and I can see he also doesn't have as much problems as I do getting around in rough waves or high wind conditions.

On the deck in 50 kts feels like you're standing on the hood of your car tethered to the hood ornament doing that speed on a bumpy curvy mountain road. There's a reason I prefer to crawl forward at those times. Just because it FEELS that way doesn't mean it's that unsafe though.

Lucky for all of us that jacklines and tether will keep you safe while you work. And if you're already crawling you're unlikely to fall or be knocked too hard against something. It may FEEL unsafe but it's not as bad as you may think. Sort of like how nonsailors think heeling is unsafe. .... Experience helps in all ways. What seems unsafe is often just unfamiliar.

And really -- none of it is easy.

IMO the sea state is THE big issue. Not winds. We were sailing north off Cape Blanco in about 40kts when the USCG came up on the radio with a warning we had never heard before. It was for 'extremely hazardous seas' at Cape Blanco and advised all mariners to avoid transiting the area (lat longs were given). We were smack in the middle of the area getting tossed around by the huge mixed seas like our 30T boat was a rubber ducky in a washing machine --and thinking why couldn't they have given a hazardous seas warning a few hours back rather than wait for the EXTREMELY hazardous seas to talk about it? Awful. We were reefed but still over canvassed and that was one time we decided not to reef further but instead to change our point of sail to let the wind help us stand up better to the seas and that did achieve a better motion. We went from very broad reaching at 11 kts going due north to as close hauled as we could get resulting in making 6 kts due west. We gained sea room and importantly we took the waves that were hitting us from 2 directions (port beam and port aft quarter) and placed them both forward of the beam--what was the predominant ground swell 15'/17sec was now on the starboard bow almost head on and the wind waves 18'/15sec (yes shorter than square) were just forward of the beam port side. Huge wave energy hitting us from both directions but we were able to carry on for 5 hours this way before turning back to due north as the wave periods we were experiencing lengthened.

None of it is easy. In our case these things always seem to happen at night too. Video? Yeah. Chuckle. We don't manage to video anything exciting aboard. Always video the calm happy times after the excitement is long gone. 🙄

Enjoy your sailing -- big winds and waves always reveal to my husband and me the majestic power of the ocean that we love. These more challenging conditions also help me realize that even a wimp like me can rise to the occasion and deal with a lot of different things while sailing. So yeah, unless you're Pete Goss or someone else with huge hours of ocean heavy weather experience on the foredeck already, go forward to reef and don't shortchange yourself on gaining important skills that you may desperately need someday.

Fair winds
Brenda.



Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

With all due respect to those with expensive Sundeer's, Oysters, Swans etc.. in my book setting of on a voyage in 35kts plus is reckless.. and NOT good seamanship.. it is to my mind putting boat and crew into an unnecessary situation which is great if all goes well and wins bragging rights at the bar and here.. but do not please.. call it what it is not.
There's folk on this forum who do not maybe know any better and think.. Well..!! Jedi and Keno reckon good sailors can set of in any weather else they are not good sailors.. we've done a few coastal miles.. and 2hrs later find themselves doing a Mayday.
Personally there is no way I would follow your example if you went past me at an anchorage in the Med out into those conditions.. I'd just grin, shake my head and go back to my book.
I can't afford to throw money away on silly **** like this with my boats and for sure the owners of boats I deliver definitely would not.. even if they say they would.. the tune changes all to often at the end off the trip.
Also as skipper it is my responsibility to keep the crew safe and putting them into needless situations for a schedule is also Not good seamanship.
What happens 100miles offshore and beyond is another matter entirely and not applicable here.

The point is well taken indeed and all of us should take it to heart.


But what would you do in this situation:

You are at the beginning of a 1500 mile voyage, you have three excellent sailors on board with you (all three Yachtmaster Ocean and not just on paper), the boat is sound with new sails and recently replaced rigging, recent thorough inspection/servicing of steering gear, sea cocks, etc.

You need to transit the North Sea and make it to Helgoland, and the forecast is for two days of F8. But from the S, so behind you. The thing is -- this being the North Sea -- the forecast for the whole next week after that is F9 and F10.

So what do you do? Your crew doesn't have an endless amount of time before they need to get back to work, and you don't want to do it single handed. You discuss it with the whole crew and they unanimously support the idea to go while it's still F8. You have a lot of experience in F8 and on this boat F8 is not hairy, so long as the wind is behind the beam.

And so you go, but as sometimes happened, the forecast F8 turns into a solid F9 with gusts into the 50's, and stays that way for 24 hours, during which time the sea builds up to large ocean real F9 breaking waves, with crests as big as boxcars falling off the tops.

The crew is calm, everyone is clipped in, and just once we get nailed by one of the falling crests, resulting in tons of water down the companionway, a broach, and mild knockdown (yes, companionway should have been closed -- my mistake). No damage except one destroyed computer. The rest of the voyage goes without incident except for the time we sailed the wrong way (!) up the Terschelling TSS for a few miles in intense traffic, with the permission of the Dutch Coast Guard (!), to avoid turning beam to the still breaking waves. At night.

So was it a stupid decision to go?

I don't know myself. If you go in a forecast F8 there is ALWAYS a risk that it turns out to be more than predicted. If F8 is reasonably safe and even fun for a well prepared boat and crew, a real ocean F9 with breaking waves is not. So we took a risk of that, and we got it -- the risk came true. Should I have scrubbed it, sent the crew home, and hung out in port until it piped down? I might have been waiting for weeks. I'm not defending the decision; I still can't decide whether it was right or not.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

You can have 40K wind there but that are very benign sea conditions for 40k, not the type of sea that we would expect in a F8 almost F9 conditions. I had worse than that with 30/35k winds. Not always the wind correspond to the sea condition that many hours of that wind will rise.

Anyway I don't think boatman is saying that 30/35 k winds are not to be expected on a passage or that one that goes for a passage should not be prepared for that , what he said was " setting of on a voyage in 35kts plus is reckless.. and NOT good seamanship" and that was nothing to do with catching on a voyage 35K wind. Simply if you set off with 35k and a weather forecast of 35K for the voyage, the chances that conditions may worsen regarding that prevision are much bigger than if he set off with 20k and those. Those 35K can easily go to 50 k or over while if we are talking about 20k average wind on the weather forecast that can easily reach 35K but not easily 50K.

While 35K even considering bad sea conditions (for 35K) are manageable 50k, if the sea conditions are not benign, can create survival conditions.

Not much time ago the story of a Lagoon 39 that was capsized in 50/55K winds and 9 meters waves was revisited on this forum and I have seen lots of boats being abandoned on those conditions, that at the least will create very stressful condition for the boat and crew, sometimes for days.

Don't seem to me that set sailing having a reasonable probability of finding those conditions (50K) could be considered good seamanship.

I think this is a good analysis, and probably shows that I've made some incorrect decisions. Maybe this year I am one notch more conservative.

A very good illustration of how this can all go wrong is the case of the Hot Liquid racing charter company, which had two serious accidents in bad weather within a year, due to just these factors that Boatman is talking about.

https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...rtexReport.pdf

Sail training yacht set off with Force 10 forecast – Yachting Monthly

The Liquid Vortex case was especially awful, as the skipper was boastfully tweeting about setting out into a F10 forecast before the accident.

Boat were lost and people were killed and injured due to this. Big sea conditions are not something to mess around with, and treat like a joke. The sea will bite your ass for such attitudes.


I'm not with this saying at all that ANYONE on this board is like that. Just a cautionary tale.

[Schooner Chandlery]

I notice there are a lot of folks questioning why someone would be out in 35kts or more. I don't second guess the voyaging plans of other folks.

Winds along the Pacific coast from San Francisco northwards are often blowing 30 kts or more. Ports and anchorages are few and far. If the tides are favorable for leaving port and if the seas favorable for the trip then yeah leaving in 35kts may be the best action.

The sea state is really important not just the winds. The waves that travel across the pacific can make or break the comfort and safety of the trip. If one is deciding to go out with prevailing winds and seas that is far different than a set up with winds and seas at odds. We have waited in port for days on end because of seas. Yet we will only seriously wait out 30+kt winds if they're part of a bigger gale that will persist and could bring even worse seas with it.

I might feel differently if we were sailing different cruising grounds. There are no absolutes.




Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery

Nobody said sailing would always be easy. It's not. The solution of going forward to reef is best for safety from the perspective of less to go wrong rigging-mechanically and if a person is used to going forward to reef they won't be freaked out when they have to do so because something broke.

The unexpected thing I have noticed is when the wind is steady at anything above ... Oh. 35 kts it starts getting annoyingly difficult to do things. Still can work on deck safely tethered in but the word annoying describes it perfectly.

I don't start feeling unsafe or worried unless sea state is so rough that I am having a hard time not getting slammed around against things. My husband is much stronger than me and I can see he also doesn't have as much problems as I do getting around in rough waves or high wind conditions.

On the deck in 50 kts feels like you're standing on the hood of your car tethered to the hood ornament doing that speed on a bumpy curvy mountain road. There's a reason I prefer to crawl forward at those times. Just because it FEELS that way doesn't mean it's that unsafe though.

Lucky for all of us that jacklines and tether will keep you safe while you work. And if you're already crawling you're unlikely to fall or be knocked too hard against something. It may FEEL unsafe but it's not as bad as you may think. Sort of like how nonsailors think heeling is unsafe. .... Experience helps in all ways. What seems unsafe is often just unfamiliar.

And really -- none of it is easy.

IMO the sea state is THE big issue. Not winds. We were sailing north off Cape Blanco in about 40kts when the USCG came up on the radio with a warning we had never heard before. It was for 'extremely hazardous seas' at Cape Blanco and advised all mariners to avoid transiting the area (lat longs were given). We were smack in the middle of the area getting tossed around by the huge mixed seas like our 30T boat was a rubber ducky in a washing machine --and thinking why couldn't they have given a hazardous seas warning a few hours back rather than wait for the EXTREMELY hazardous seas to talk about it? Awful. We were reefed but still over canvassed and that was one time we decided not to reef further but instead to change our point of sail to let the wind help us stand up better to the seas and that did achieve a better motion. We went from very broad reaching at 11 kts going due north to as close hauled as we could get resulting in making 6 kts due west. We gained sea room and importantly we took the waves that were hitting us from 2 directions (port beam and port aft quarter) and placed them both forward of the beam--what was the predominant ground swell 15'/17sec was now on the starboard bow almost head on and the wind waves 18'/15sec (yes shorter than square) were just forward of the beam port side. Huge wave energy hitting us from both directions but we were able to carry on for 5 hours this way before turning back to due north as the wave periods we were experiencing lengthened.

None of it is easy. In our case these things always seem to happen at night too. Video? Yeah. Chuckle. We don't manage to video anything exciting aboard. Always video the calm happy times after the excitement is long gone. ��

Enjoy your sailing -- big winds and waves always reveal to my husband and me the majestic power of the ocean that we love. These more challenging conditions also help me realize that even a wimp like me can rise to the occasion and deal with a lot of different things while sailing. So yeah, unless you're Pete Goss or someone else with huge hours of ocean heavy weather experience on the foredeck already, go forward to reef and don't shortchange yourself on gaining important skills that you may desperately need someday.

Fair winds
Brenda.

Nice post Brenda and it seems that we agree regarding much but in extreme conditions going forward can be just too risky. Look at this video at min 1.30 at the second staysail. see the guys there? and there they go with the wave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzSwhaECG28

Take into consideration that this is a 59 steel yacht and imagine how it would be the movement and water motion on a smaller and lighter boat.

I was once on conditions were bare poles was the way to go and had the boat prepared for that in time but when the wind lessen (but not the sea) and I found out that a third reef on the main was the way to go and thought about it, I quickly decided against it because the movement of the boat was so wild that I risked to fall and to hurt myself badly even going with an harness.

If there are several guys to do the job, like on that big boat on the movie, the risk is small because when you are working somebody can hold you down, but when you have to use the hands you cannot hold properly to the boat. Specially when it is not only the movement but the waves over the boat.

I don't need to go forward for reefing but I had to go on this case because I had closed the sail bag to prevent any chance of the sail to fly with the wind. Later the sail bag was partially ripped off by the wind force and when the movement was not yet so wild I had gone forward to pass some ropes around the boom to prevent further damage.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The point is well taken indeed and all of us should take it to heart.


But what would you do in this situation:

You are at the beginning of a 1500 mile voyage, you have three excellent sailors on board with you (all three Yachtmaster Ocean and not just on paper), the boat is sound with new sails and recently replaced rigging, recent thorough inspection/servicing of steering gear, sea cocks, etc.

You need to transit the North Sea and make it to Helgoland, and the forecast is for two days of F8. But from the S, so behind you. The thing is -- this being the North Sea -- the forecast for the whole next week after that is F9 and F10.

So what do you do? Your crew doesn't have an endless amount of time before they need to get back to work, and you don't want to do it single handed. You discuss it with the whole crew and they unanimously support the idea to go while it's still F8. You have a lot of experience in F8 and on this boat F8 is not hairy, so long as the wind is behind the beam.

And so you go, but as sometimes happened, the forecast F8 turns into a solid F9 with gusts into the 50's, and stays that way for 24 hours, during which time the sea builds up to large ocean real F9 breaking waves, with crests as big as boxcars falling off the tops.

The crew is calm, everyone is clipped in, and just once we get nailed by one of the falling crests, resulting in tons of water down the companionway, a broach, and mild knockdown (yes, companionway should have been closed -- my mistake). No damage except one destroyed computer. The rest of the voyage goes without incident except for the time we sailed the wrong way (!) up the Terschelling TSS for a few miles in intense traffic, with the permission of the Dutch Coast Guard (!), to avoid turning beam to the still breaking waves. At night.

So was it a stupid decision to go?

I don't know myself. If you go in a forecast F8 there is ALWAYS a risk that it turns out to be more than predicted. If F8 is reasonably safe and even fun for a well prepared boat and crew, a real ocean F9 with breaking waves is not. So we took a risk of that, and we got it -- the risk came true. Should I have scrubbed it, sent the crew home, and hung out in port until it piped down? I might have been waiting for weeks. I'm not defending the decision; I still can't decide whether it was right or not.

Personally I'd have said sorry guys.. maybe another time.. not because it was downwind and an F8 so much as I know the N Sea.. to much traffic, to many knee deep in the middle of nowhere bits and no entry zones, wind farms etc that cause traffic funnels (been cursed out by the German CG.) and.. I've never been on a boat such as the one you've described..

When I set out from Brixham solo for Portugal it was with a nice window of N'lies for 3 days which would have got me to Ushant and beyond into deep water.. however when I reached Ushant 36hrs later it had changed and I spent 2 days and 3 nights tacking back and forth in an F7 from the SW before it changed and I could once again make progress S..
From there on it never dropped below F6 in the 4-6hr lulls between the gales as they came over the horizon.. could have made the choice of run for Brest through strong tidal and rocky waters or Les Sables/Rochelle but those are not easy entries.. would have had big beam breakers turning for the entrances.. so ran, hove to, ran, hove to again and again till off Viveiro when I kicked in the trusty Honda and ran/surfed into the entrance.. knew trying for La Coruna would be lethal..
Would not call what I did 'Good Seamanship' either..
But.. it was only my life on the line

This is Turnstone, my Hurley 22 lying alongside in Brixham with the Bene331 I'd bought and lived on for the previous 2yrs to her right...from the Caribe to the Atlantic islands and Portugal.. then to the UK where she had to go.. I was moving my gear across before the new owner took over.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think this is a good analysis, and probably shows that I've made some incorrect decisions. Maybe this year I am one notch more conservative.
...

Maybe I say that because I have already taken some bad decisions that I have regretted and paid for them. Maybe you have made some bad decisions and got lucky

I give you an example: I was without Internet or radio for a day, on anchor at the beginning of the West coast of Crete (with big cliffs around that blocked electrical waves) when they wind started to get strong from the North. I took the opportunity to have some fun sailing downwind fast doing in just some hours all the west coast and turning to the South coast to get some shelter from the wind.

The wind increased and I was now going upwind under reduced sail making tacks till I found the beach I was planning to stay at anchor. All seemed well, I put the anchor down with a reinforced anchor system and the wind increases even more being now a full F8. Now I had internet and found out with surprise that the wind was going to increase to F9 and then to a full F10 during all the night. I also new that on that place the wind was being increased by the high cliffs. I had forward a bad night.

I found out also, on the weather prevision, that offshore, near the utmost Southern Greek Island, the wind predicted was only F4 to F6 and I decided to take it on the sea.

Cast anchor, sailed South quickly and at mid way the wind started to go down and soon I has sailing fast with full sail on a F4 with the wind coming as predicted from NE. When the wind almost disappeared to the point I was motor-sailing I had a big smile on my face.

But when I arrived near the Island (I planned to anchor on a beach on the West coast) the wind returned and with it big waves, 6 or 7m waves that rolled between the two Islands making obviously impossible to anchor where I had planned.

Even so I was not worried. The wind was only F7 so I decided to keep the boat going slowly against the waves for the night under reduced sail....but then the F7 went to F8, F9 and to the predicted F10 and I felt like a smart ass

After all the moonless night at the steering wheel, with waves crashing over the boat, morning showed a white sea with lots of breakers....After sailing downwind for many hours and somewhat dangerously, with seas abeam, for several hours, I could find, a protected shore and with it two ships that were there taking refuge in front of a beech.

During all night I didn't saw a single navigation light and that shows how dumb I had been.

Obviously I should have stayed on that anchorage no matter the wind and should not have trusted a weather forecast that on those situations (strong winds) is always a bit relative.

Off course it may also have turned right, the forecast could have been accurate and I would not have learned a lesson

[TeddyDiver]

Further to high latitudes you go the weather is merely on or off. Either a gale or storm to sail or between 4knots to nothing. Ok a bit of extragating but not much. Since monday it's been 30 to 70 knots..
So my point is either you have a seaworthy boat or you don't sail..

BR Teddy

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

Maybe I say that because I have already taken some bad decisions that I have regretted and paid for them. Maybe you have made some bad decisions and got lucky

I give you an example: I was without Internet or radio for a day, on anchor at the beginning of the West coast of Crete (with big cliffs around that blocked electrical waves) when they wind started to get strong from the North. I took the opportunity to have some fun sailing downwind fast doing in just some hours all the west coast and turning to the South coast to get some shelter from the wind.

The wind increased and I was now going upwind under reduced sail making tacks till I found the beach I was planning to stay at anchor. All seemed well, I put the anchor down with a reinforced anchor system and the wind increases even more being now a full F8. Now I had internet and found out with surprise that the wind was going to increase to F9 and then to a full F10 during all the night. I also new that on that place the wind was being increased by the high cliffs. I had forward a bad night.

I found out also, on the weather prevision, that offshore, near the utmost Southern Greek Island, the wind predicted was only F4 to F6 and I decided to take it on the sea.

Cast anchor, sailed South quickly and at mid way the wind started to go down and soon I has sailing fast with full sail on a F4 with the wind coming as predicted from NE. When the wind almost disappeared to the point I was motor-sailing I had a big smile on my face.

But when I arrived near the Island (I planned to anchor on a beach on the West coast) the wind returned and with it big waves, 6 or 7m waves that rolled between the two Islands making obviously impossible to anchor where I had planned.

Even so I was not worried. The wind was only F7 so I decided to keep the boat going slowly against the waves for the night under reduced sail....but then the F7 went to F8, F9 and to the predicted F10 and I felt like a smart ass

After all the moonless night at the steering wheel, with waves crashing over the boat, morning showed a white sea with lots of breakers....After sailing downwind for many hours and somewhat dangerously, with seas abeam, for several hours, I could find, a protected shore and with it two ships that were there taking refuge in front of a beech.

During all night I didn't saw a single navigation light and that shows how dumb I had been.

Obviously I should have stayed on that anchorage no matter the wind and should not have trusted a weather forecast that on those situations (strong winds) is always a bit relative.

Off course it may also have turned right, the forecast could have been accurate and I would not have learned a lesson

Great story. We've all done stuff like that. No matter how smart and how careful you are, you go through a few things like that as the only way to learn this or that lesson.

That's not bad decision making, so much as inadequate weather analysis. I had a series of hard lessons about proper diligence in passage planning.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by Polux

Nice post Brenda and it seems that we agree regarding much but in extreme conditions going forward can be just too risky. Look at this video at min 1.30 at the second staysail. see the guys there? and there they go with the wave.

I was once on conditions were bare poles was the way to go and had the boat prepared for that in time but when the wind lessen (but not the sea) and I found out that a third reef on the main was the way to go and thought about it, I quickly decided against it because the movement of the boat was so wild that I risked to fall and to hurt myself badly even going with an harness.

If there are several guys to do the job, like on that big boat on the movie, the risk is small because when you are working somebody can hold you down, but when you have to use the hands you cannot hold properly to the boat. Specially when it is not only the movement but the waves over the boat.

I don't need to go forward for reefing but I had to go on this case because I had closed the sail bag to prevent any chance of the sail to fly with the wind. Later the sail bag was partially ripped off by the wind force and when the movement was not yet so wild I had gone forward to pass some ropes around the boom to prevent further damage.

The footage in your video is of large racing boats sailing as such racing boats do. It's like showing someone rounding Cape Horn during the Volvo ocean race and calling it typical. I only gave the video one quick look--the cut at 130 is included in the vid because it's dramatic -- but I would think the fellows were tethered in and they're flat on the deck bruised and soaking wet but still on deck to leeward of the sails when all was said and done. They are racers working the boat to windward—something cruisers usually wouldn't be doing in those conditions. I am not belittling the risk for those racers, just adding a little context.

Being out at all in gale force winds in a really small boat is entirely different than the larger 45 to 60 ft cruising boats. It's like two completely different conversations. What we do now in our 30T schooner is very different than what we used to do in our 5T sloop. The video the OP started the thread with shows it well—nice conditions for their boat whether or not so nice for other boats. It is a requirement that you must know enough about the boat you are on to know if that boat is up to the conditions. Seldom are conditions actually extreme for a cruising boat. Unless in high latitudes, watching the weather seems to more than reduce risk. Yes, many small cruising boats will be hove to in 35+kts anyway. Reefing becomes a moot point there.

I just see that a significant number of sailors devising all kinds of ways to stay in the cockpit and never leave it The “dread” factor is pretty big it seems and if someone is really dreading something it becomes it's own problem. More a problem than just doing the dreaded thing.

Always tethered: Going forward to reef, on most modern non-racing boats means going to the base of the mast--usually a safe place to be and nothing like the bow or getting dowsed in the waves hanging onto the bowsprit. Most modern boats have roller reefing sails and choose to use them as such. So it's often really just getting to the mast and doing your thing there. Having the boat set up so you can work while sitting, kneeling, or even laying down is certainly nice too. Again—the risk of falling and getting hurt is much less if you're already crawling. I have no pride. NONE. If it's rough I'll drop to my knees and crawl in an instant. It's faster than trying to walk and falling and dealing with that! It may be wetter, yes, and you may need kneepads if you have bony knees, yes.

There ARE certainly times when I would do just about anything other than go forward to reef--for example, after we turned to windward in my previous post example, there is NO way I would have gone onto the foredeck unless I feared the rig was at risk. The seas were boarding over the bow and midships. It would have almost been a swim to get to the foremast if one had to do so. You'd really be counting on the tether. There was so much spray you could barely see anything more than a few feet from you. We sailed with the spreader lights on just so we could see the rig from inside the dry charthouse rather than stand watch in the open cockpit. I just stared at the deluge from within the charthouse and was very thankful for the shelter.

As we sail, we tend to reef very early--we tend not to shake out a reef that we think we'll need in a couple hours. Just our way of doing things. Maybe a little slower but much less exciting.

[boatman61]

Opppsss..!! Sorry folks.. slight inaccuracy in my tale.. it was November, not December as the picture in my previous post about Turnstone was taken on 28/10/08 in Brixham marina..
I sailed a couple or three of days later.. this one below was taken on the 30/11/08.. the day after I arrived in Viveiro N Spain.. so basically my 450nm non-stop took about 28days.. but I surfed with whales.. so it was not all bad..

December sounds so much more exciting..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery

The footage in your video is of large racing boats sailing as such racing boats do. It's like showing someone rounding Cape Horn during the Volvo ocean race and calling it typical. I only gave the video one quick look--the cut at 130 is included in the vid because it's dramatic -- but I would think the fellows were tethered in and they're flat on the deck bruised and soaking wet but still on deck to leeward of the sails when all was said and done. They are racers working the boat to windward—something cruisers usually wouldn't be doing in those conditions. I am not belittling the risk for those racers, just adding a little context.

Being out at all in gale force winds in a really small boat is entirely different than the larger 45 to 60 ft cruising boats. It's like two completely different conversations. What we do now in our 30T schooner is very different than what we used to do in our 5T sloop. The video the OP started the thread with shows it well—nice conditions for their boat whether or not so nice for other boats. It is a requirement that you must know enough about the boat you are on to know if that boat is up to the conditions. Seldom are conditions actually extreme for a cruising boat. Unless in high latitudes, watching the weather seems to more than reduce risk. Yes, many small cruising boats will be hove to in 35+kts anyway. Reefing becomes a moot point there.

I just see that a significant number of sailors devising all kinds of ways to stay in the cockpit and never leave it The “dread” factor is pretty big it seems and if someone is really dreading something it becomes it's own problem. More a problem than just doing the dreaded thing.

Always tethered: Going forward to reef, on most modern non-racing boats means going to the base of the mast--usually a safe place to be and nothing like the bow or getting dowsed in the waves hanging onto the bowsprit. Most modern boats have roller reefing sails and choose to use them as such. So it's often really just getting to the mast and doing your thing there. Having the boat set up so you can work while sitting, kneeling, or even laying down is certainly nice too. Again—the risk of falling and getting hurt is much less if you're already crawling. I have no pride. NONE. If it's rough I'll drop to my knees and crawl in an instant. It's faster than trying to walk and falling and dealing with that! It may be wetter, yes, and you may need kneepads if you have bony knees, yes.

There ARE certainly times when I would do just about anything other than go forward to reef--for example, after we turned to windward in my previous post example, there is NO way I would have gone onto the foredeck unless I feared the rig was at risk. The seas were boarding over the bow and midships. It would have almost been a swim to get to the foremast if one had to do so. You'd really be counting on the tether. There was so much spray you could barely see anything more than a few feet from you. We sailed with the spreader lights on just so we could see the rig from inside the dry charthouse rather than stand watch in the open cockpit. I just stared at the deluge from within the charthouse and was very thankful for the shelter.

As we sail, we tend to reef very early--we tend not to shake out a reef that we think we'll need in a couple hours. Just our way of doing things. Maybe a little slower but much less exciting.

Don't understand your point. The subject is pretty simple: it is safer to reef a boat, (forward sail and main mainsail) from the cockpit or it is safer to go forward and to the mast to do that?

It seems to me the answer is straightforward being the only drawback the risk of jamming, that can eventually but very rarely, happen on an in mast furling main since roller furllers for forward sails are pretty much bullet prof if well used.

Jamming problems don't happen if you use what is called automatic one line furling that is a pretty straight forward system and even if something does not work you only have to reef it the "old" way. Some use one line systems for the two first reefs and two lines for the 3th.

So what is the point? Do you think it is safer to go to the mast in the middle of a storm for reffing than to do it from the cockpit, if you can?

I don't get it and it gets worse and more risky at the measure the boats become smaller.

That seems also to be an American difference that I attribute (right or wrongly) to conservatism. Some American new boats, mainly conservative ones, still have reefing system on the mast. Very few European brands or European sailors use the old system.