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Old 14-03-2016, 15:14   #226
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
There is a lot of spray on the air and that is consistent with winds well over 40k.

Regarding the sail what they are doing is pointing more and more to the wind with the front sail while they have the main on the first reef completely depowered and are sailing slowly. I bet you do the same when you are reefing sails, at least I do.

If they were cruisers they would have probably taken the main down, reefed the jib but they are racers, have the boat under control and are just waiting the squall to pass to resume racing, they don't want to lose time putting the main up again.
Yes I know they were feathering the sails but I have been in many offshore squalls and to begin with its very very rare to have them at 55 knots plus just looking carefully at the situation/spray etc. maybe 40 knots at the most, that's my opinion. That and the fact these utube winds always are way higher than reality. Now the cat in the southern oceans, those were winds and the seas that go with them, different cup of tea.
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Old 14-03-2016, 16:03   #227
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

The criticism of this video reminds me that no matter what the conditions, there will always be someone sitting in an armchair picking on what they did and minimising the conditions.

I recall another thread where the 1998 Sydney to Hobart race came up and a couple of our CF armchair commentators came out with comments that it was no more than usual and downplaying the seriousness of it.

With this boat, whilst I have never even been on a yacht that big, at 30 knotts with gusts higher, I think I'd call them sensible cruising folk. There is no place for hero's out in the ocean.
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Old 17-03-2016, 14:19   #228
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

I am enjoying this thread but I am confused about something. The poster said

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Polux,

Thanks for sharing those videos, I hadn't seen the first one. I know the second video was shot during a delivery in the same area of the Med as ours, and their sails or sail sustained some damage as a result of the storm. I'd seen that one sometime maybe two years ago, and it was one of the reasons we chose not to use our furled Yankee as a storm sail in our situation. Which in the end was probably the right move, since on the next day our engine alarm came on when leaving the anchorage and we were forced to sail into Olbia under sail alone in 35 knot conditions. The UV protective cover on the Yankee ended up ripping which then required repair. Our yankee sail doesn't appear to enjoy 35+ knot conditions in a 70% furled state.

Next time, we'll use the staysail which is meant to be used as a storm sail.

Ken

but earlier he said

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We had problems with the staysail furling line. It was badly chaffed and missing part of the outer cover where it passed through a block. It got stuck two days before and going into this mess I didn't want to chance using it. I had struck a new line to the furling drum as a precaution, but the line was cheap and couldn't be trusted.

So we could deploy the sail in order to get out of a leeward shore jam, but it would have been possibly very difficult to take in the sail.
Should not this problem with the lines have been sorted before heading out into gale conditions? The staysail os very important in high conditions, no?

I don't want to be critical but this seems a problem with preparation not choices.
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Old 17-03-2016, 22:39   #229
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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I am enjoying this thread but I am confused about something. The poster said

but earlier he said

Should not this problem with the lines have been sorted before heading out into gale conditions? The staysail is very important in high conditions, no?

I don't want to be critical but this seems a problem with preparation not choices.
The original tapered dyneema line which controlled the furling drum had become damaged during a previous encounter with foul weather. Most of the time while out cruising, it's nearly impossible to replace an item like a tapered Dyneema furling line... especially, anchored at a remote fishing village in a place like Corsica. So.... sometimes we need to make do with what we have at the time... and what we had at the time... wasn't ideal.

Heading into what we thought would be 35-38 knots of wind, I replaced the staysail furling line with a standard unstretched piece of 1/2 inch line we had for just such an occasion. We could have deployed the staysail if we wanted to do so, but the decision was made to play it safe and sail using the mainsail furled to 20% and run the motor at 50% when we encountered the 40-49 knot conditions. It was somewhat doubtful that the furling line would be able to handle the strain if we needed to furl in the sail, and..... I didn't want to have to go forward to lower the sail by hand in those conditions.

So, to answer your question....

1. Yes we were prepared, the furling line had been replaced before we set out into what we thought would be 30-38 knot conditions.

2. We had been in similar conditions several times but mostly in the 30-40 knot range and knew how our boat handled.

3. We also know how to lower our staysail by hand, and.... knew just how difficult it can be in even 25 knots, because we've done it before on several occasions... and didn't want to have to do it in 40-49 knots.

4. There's more than one way to safely get from point "A" to point "B" in a gale or storm, and one way is to use the motor instead of the staysail.

5. Obviously, we made the right decisions.... because what you see in the video, is two people sailing in what most would consider to be miserable conditions in a rather relaxed, experienced and controlled manner. We even had the forethought to video tape the experience to share with others.

I hope this answers your questions, and thank you for posting your question.

Ken
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Old 17-03-2016, 22:53   #230
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The original tapered dyneema line which controlled the furling drum had become damaged during a previous encounter with foul weather. Most of the time while out cruising, it's nearly impossible to replace an item like a tapered Dyneema furling line... especially, anchored at a remote fishing village in a place like Corsica. So.... We need to make do with what we have at the time.

Heading into what we thought would be 35-38 knots of wind, I replaced the staysail furling line with a standard unstretched piece of 1/2 inch line we had for just such an occasion. We could have deployed the staysail if we wanted to do so, but the decision was made to play it safe and sail using the mainsail furled to 20% and run the motor at 50% when we encountered the 40-49 knot conditions. It was somewhat doubtful that the furling line would be able to handle the strain if we needed to furl in the sail, and..... I didn't want to have to go forward to lower the sail by hand in those conditions.

So, to answer your question....

1. Yes we were prepared, the furling line had been replaced before we set out into what we thought would be 30-38 knot conditions.

2. We had been in similar conditions several times but mostly in the 30-40 knot range and knew how our boat handled.

3. We also know how to lower our staysail by hand, and.... knew just how difficult it can be in even 25 knots, because we've done it before on several occasions... and didn't want to have to do it in 40-48 knots.

4. There's more than one way to safely get from point "A" to point "B" in a gale or storm, and one way is to use the motor instead of the staysail.

5. Obviously, we made the right decisions.... because what you see in the video, is two people sailing in what most would consider to be miserable conditions in a rather relaxed, experienced and controlled manner. We even had the forethought to video tape the experience to share with others.

I hope this answers your questions, and thank you for posting your question.

Ken
Thank you for ansering the questions. But I'm afarid I don't agree with you. You made a poor decision. Blaming it on dyneema is not appropriate.

Please remember this is the seamanship arena.

You replace the dyneema line but you did not trust your own decision? And choosing to go out in forecasted 35-38 knots which we all know we should add 10 nots for safety with such a problem is just not good seamanship. This is truth.

I'm sorry to disagree, but I am just trying to teach you beeter seamanship. You get luck this time even though you make a bad decision. Be grateful and humbel. The sea don't care.
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Old 17-03-2016, 23:03   #231
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Originally Posted by Monkeywrench View Post
Thank you for ansering the questions. But I'm afarid I don't agree with you. You made a poor decision. Blaming it on dyneema is not appropriate.

Please remember this is the seamanship thread.

You could have replace the dyneema with any other line. But you did not. I DID REPLACE THE FURLING LINE BEFORE WE DEPARTED INTO THE GALE CONDITIONS. And choosing to go out in forecasted 35-38 knots which we all know we should add 10 nots for safety with such a problem is just not good seamanship. This is truth.

I'm sorry to disagree, but I am just trying to teach you beeter seamanship. You get luck this time even though you make a bad decision. Be grateful and humbel. The sea don't care.
It's always much easier to second guess and Monday morning quarterback from behind a computer screen in the safety of ones own home. But out cruising, decisions need to be made which are hopefully preceded by years of experience and not just internet nonsense. At no time, were we in any danger because proper preparations had been made.

Did you miss the part where I wrote that the furling line had been replaced and that the staysail could have been deployed if we'd chosen to do so?

Did you miss the part where I wrote that there is more than one way to safely sail from point "A" to point "B"? One which involves the use of the motor instead of using the staysail?

Now I'm beginning to not understand your comments. Or is it that you don't believe anyone should be out sailing in those conditions under any circumstances?

Here, watch the video again and tell me if you see two people fearing for their lives or a boat that is out of control?
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Old 17-03-2016, 23:07   #232
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeywrench View Post
Thank you for ansering the questions. But I'm afarid I don't agree with you. You made a poor decision. Blaming it on dyneema is not appropriate.

Please remember this is the seamanship arena.

You replace the dyneema line but you did not trust your own decision? And choosing to go out in forecasted 35-38 knots which we all know we should add 10 nots for safety with such a problem is just not good seamanship. This is truth.

I'm sorry to disagree, but I am just trying to teach you beeter seamanship. You get luck this time even though you make a bad decision. Be grateful and humbel. The sea don't care.
Being humble is a good advice you should follow too. One could argue a lot of things, but you weren't there, 35ish nor 45ish arent what I'd call survival conditions and there was a working plan B

BR Teddy
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Old 17-03-2016, 23:12   #233
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
It's always much easier to second guess and Monday morning quarterback from behind a computer screen in the safety of ones own home. But out cruising, decisions need to be made which are hopefully preceded by years of experience and not just internet nonsense. At no time, were we in any danger because the preparations had been made.

Did you miss the part where I wrote that the furling line had been replaced and that the staysail could have been deployed if we'd chosen to do so?

Did you miss the part where I wrote that there is more than one way to safely sail from point "A" to point "B"? One which involves the use of the motor instead of using the staysail?

Now I'm beginning to not understand your comments. Or is it that you don't believe anyone should be out sailing in those conditions under any circumstances?
I will leave this thread now. I don't mean to upset.

I read exceptionally good. And I have many many years with ocean passages from my home of Denmark to all points of the world including capes. I am now in warmer areas and eager to keep cruising.

I just hope you are willing to learn. We all make very fundamental mistakes when we start sailing. But we should always be hearing the advice of our betters. This is all I mean.

Sail safer my friend.
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Old 17-03-2016, 23:21   #234
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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I will leave this thread now. I don't mean to upset.

I read exceptionally good. And I have many many years with ocean passages from my home of Denmark to all points of the world including capes. I am now in warmer areas and eager to keep cruising.

I just hope you are willing to learn. We all make very fundamental mistakes when we start sailing. But we should always be hearing the advice of our betters. This is all I mean.

Sail safer my friend.
There's no reason to leave, and no I'm not getting upset. We just happen to disagree and there's nothing wrong with that.

Your English is very good, I just think that we might be misunderstanding each other a bit, and..... I just returned home late at night from a long day at work in a locked psychiatric hospital and I'm very tired, and possibly a little impatient.

Let's try discussing this again sometime. :

Cheers my friend.
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Old 18-03-2016, 07:22   #235
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Then there's the Sundeer 64 in force 10

http://youtu.be/_BNabB0-XVM
Nice video but their are not sailing on a F10. Maybe they have got that later but not on the video.

Regarding the video period with bigger winds and bigger waves they talk about over 40K gusting close to 50 and about 25 to 30ft waves, that is a F9.

Having to go forward to the mast to reef sails on heavy weather is not the best solution regarding safety, ...and a lot of guys for doing that. Don't seem easy.
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Old 18-03-2016, 07:32   #236
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Their are not sailing on a F10. Maybe they have got that later but not on the video.

Regarding the video period with bigger winds and bigger waves they talk about over 40K gusting close to 50 and about 25 to 30ft waves, that is a F9.
Indeed. Beaufort forces are more about sea state, not wind speed, and certainly not about wind speed for short periods, much less gusts. Just because you've seen a 50 knot gust doesn’t mean you've been in a F10; in fact it's unlikely to even be a real F9.

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Old 18-03-2016, 07:52   #237
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pirate Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

With all due respect to those with expensive Sundeer's, Oysters, Swans etc.. in my book setting of on a voyage in 35kts plus is reckless.. and NOT good seamanship.. it is to my mind putting boat and crew into an unnecessary situation which is great if all goes well and wins bragging rights at the bar and here.. but do not please.. call it what it is not.
There's folk on this forum who do not maybe know any better and think.. Well..!! Jedi and Keno reckon good sailors can set of in any weather else they are not good sailors.. we've done a few coastal miles.. and 2hrs later find themselves doing a Mayday.
Personally there is no way I would follow your example if you went past me at an anchorage in the Med out into those conditions.. I'd just grin, shake my head and go back to my book.
I can't afford to throw money away on silly **** like this with my boats and for sure the owners of boats I deliver definitely would not.. even if they say they would.. the tune changes all to often at the end off the trip.
Also as skipper it is my responsibility to keep the crew safe and putting them into needless situations for a schedule is also Not good seamanship.
What happens 100miles offshore and beyond is another matter entirely and not applicable here.

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Old 18-03-2016, 07:58   #238
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

This one seems to be in F10 conditions, not in all but in some of those images (that is a montage):

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Old 18-03-2016, 09:17   #239
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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With all due respect to those with expensive Sundeer's, Oysters, Swans etc.. in my book setting of on a voyage in 35kts plus is reckless.. and NOT good seamanship.. it is to my mind putting boat and crew into an unnecessary situation which is great if all goes well and wins bragging rights at the bar and here.. but do not please.. call it what it is not.
There's folk on this forum who do not maybe know any better and think.. Well..!! Jedi and Keno reckon good sailors can set of in any weather else they are not good sailors.. we've done a few coastal miles.. and 2hrs later find themselves doing a Mayday.
Personally there is no way I would follow your example if you went past me at an anchorage in the Med out into those conditions.. I'd just grin, shake my head and go back to my book.
I can't afford to throw money away on silly **** like this with my boats and for sure the owners of boats I deliver definitely would not.. even if they say they would.. the tune changes all to often at the end off the trip.
Also as skipper it is my responsibility to keep the crew safe and putting them into needless situations for a schedule is also Not good seamanship.
What happens 100miles offshore and beyond is another matter entirely and not applicable here.

Sailing in 30-35 knots of wind really isn't that hard to do or considered bad seamanship. How is someone supposed to learn how to handle gale or storm conditions if you never go out in winds that exceed 20-25 knots? Of course, it's good to work up to it as the Jedi Master suggests, but poor seamanship.... no.

Here's a short video of my wife at the helm in honest 40 knot conditions under bare poles with the engine running at 2000rps to charge the batteries on our way down the Coriscan coastline. We are moving along at 9 knots, which reduces the effective wind speed to 31 knots. Of course, sailing to windward would be an entirely different situation, but sailing along with the wind at our backs in 15ft seas, certainly can't be described as dangerous and poor seamanship.

I believe it's the folks without the proper experience or preparation who would be more likely to call in an unnecessary mayday when they get in a situation over their heads... than someone who has worked up to it. IMHO.
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Old 18-03-2016, 09:29   #240
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pirate Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Your sailing an area that's non tidal or as near to.. and currents are minimal.. however there are many places that are not.. and regardless of how you dress it.. I would never set out in those conditions..
But Hey.. that's just me.. its not that I cannot handle the sea's.. December in the Biscay on a 22ftr with 11m seas and 60-70kts and approaching a lee shore off NW Spain solo says I can..
But the experience of a 6'2" 200lb guy 10yrs younger threatening to beat me up while his wife screamed hysterically down below when I refused to turn and beat back to the lights of Tariffa on the horizon astern induces me not to.. plus.. I've the rest of my life to cruise in.. why push the envelope needlessly.
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