Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-02-2016, 13:06   #151
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Mike,

I'm surprised more people haven't chimed in with similar experiences. We often hear about how horrible Force 10 and above storms can be and most recreational sailors or cruisers can only imagine what it would be like (myself included), but we didn't find the 40-50 knots to be unmanageable. I'm sure upping the winds to Force 10 with 50 knots and above plus the sea state adds a whole new dimension that I really don't wish to experience.

I plan on posting another very short video sometime in the next week showing my wife at the helm running downwind in 40 knots under bare poles... Again, it was not a big deal. Kinda fun actually.
Ken, the important thing is -- sea state doesn't follow automatically from wind speed. It takes thousands (not hundreds) of miles of fetch to build up a really big sea state. It only takes 40 knots of wind to create survival conditions, if it's been blowing long enough, and over a long enough distance. In the Southern Ocean, for example, where the fetch is infinite, you can have unbelievably horrible sea states, without really high winds. And on the other hand, 60 knots of wind is no big deal if it's a sudden squall, or if you're in the Solent, say, with only a few miles of fetch.

Besides this factor, you have effects from the tide (and Gulf Stream), which can make the sea state either much easier than it should be, or much harder, and effects from the bottom shape -- shallowing water which can make the sea rise up.

And whatever it is that makes those short, steep waves in constricted waters like Med and Baltic and Great Lakes -- which can be dangerous far out of proportion to their height. I don't understand the physics of that, actually, but I've experienced it.

An old sailor's adage -- it's not the wind that gets you -- it's the sea state.


Sea state also lags behind wind speed. For example, what we have right this minute in our waters is this:

Click image for larger version

Name:	waves.PNG
Views:	109
Size:	393.9 KB
ID:	118659

Click image for larger version

Name:	wind.jpg
Views:	102
Size:	312.3 KB
ID:	118660

It's only blowing 20 knots, but the waves are 10 - 15 meters high (33 - 50 feet) off the coast of Ireland, and 10 meters (33 feet) off the Cornish coast in the English Channel.

These big conditions you only get in big water, with the :shudder: Southern Ocean being a special case, with a low bow to our friends from New Zealand and the Southern parts of Australia, who must needs have much bigger balls than we do.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 13:44   #152
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,452
Images: 69
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

We were in similar conditions in the Coral sea. For 4 days wind never dropped below 35 kts, and on the second and third days it never dropped below 40, averaging 45, hitting 48 at one time.


Fetch? As big as the weather system, thousands of miles of open ocean to windward.


Conditions were pretty crappy, but I never thought of it as a storm. Didn't even think to take video. We were comfortable enough, cooked and ate hot meals, slept when off watch, didn't need weather gear">foul weather gear....


It was more annoying than anything else, I'd been planning on a nice sail lying on the trampolines watching dolphins play. That's what the original forecasts suggested....
__________________

__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 13:55   #153
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40
Posts: 2,842
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Mike,

I'm surprised more people haven't chimed in with similar experiences. We often hear about how horrible Force 10 and above storms can be and most recreational sailors or cruisers can only imagine what it would be like (myself included), but we didn't find the 40-50 knots to be unmanageable. I'm sure upping the winds to Force 10 with 50 knots and above plus the sea state adds a whole new dimension that I really don't wish to experience.

I plan on posting another very short video sometime in the next week showing my wife at the helm running downwind in 40 knots under bare poles... Again, it was not a big deal. Kinda fun actually.
OK, I will...

In 2013 we went from Fourni to Mykonos in my "OMGyourgoingtodieinthatplasticboatthatsonlyfitfor coastalcharterfairweathersailing" yacht. We left in an F8 which picked up to a F9 with the occasional gusts in the F10. The sea was similar to what you had and we were on a beam reach most of the day. We had 3 reefs in the main and a heavily rolled in headsail and were making 7.5-8 knots.

The sailing was just as comfortable as yours looked.

The only bad thing was that because the headsail was so heavily rolled in, that when the wind swung around 10 degrees, we could not point higher and ended up quite a few miles south of Mykonos and had to motorsail into a nasty chop. In hindsight, when the wind swung around I perhaps should have started the motor and rolled in the headsail and pointed higher.

Sorry, no video that day
__________________
S/Y Jessabbé http://www.jessabbe.com/
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 13:59   #154
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
OK, I will...

In 2013 we went from Fourni to Mykonos in my "OMGyourgoingtodieinthatplasticboatthatsonlyfitfor coastalcharterfairweathersailing" yacht. We left in an F8 which picked up to a F9 with the occasional gusts in the F10. The sea was similar to what you had and we were on a beam reach most of the day. We had 3 reefs in the main and a heavily rolled in headsail and were making 7.5-8 knots.

The sailing was just as comfortable as yours looked.

The only bad thing was that because the headsail was so heavily rolled in, that when the wind swung around 10 degrees, we could not point higher and ended up quite a few miles south of Mykonos and had to motorsail into a nasty chop. In hindsight, when the wind swung around I perhaps should have started the motor and rolled in the headsail and pointed higher.

Sorry, no video that day
Small point of order -- there is no such thing as "gusts in the F10". Beaufort forces are based on average wind speed over a significant period of time. Gusts have nothing to do with it. It can be argued that the Beaufort forces aren't actually wind speed at all, but a measure of sea state. Certainly, that's what they were originally intended to be.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 14:19   #155
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Wind speed should really be quoted as the ten minute average, which is normally considerably closer to the lowest wind speed you see than the highest. So a true 40-50 knots average will usually have gusts of over 60 knots. Yachties will often quote the highest gust wind speed they see as the average, thereby skewing everyone's perspectives dangerously.

I say dangerously, because then when the forecast is for fifty knots people think ohh well, fifty is easy, I've been out in that plenty of times.

So off they go, and then they complain that the forecast was wrong because they got gusts of 70 knots. When in fact the average was around 50, and the forcast was spot on.

Wind force is to the speed squared. So going from 40 to 57 knots doubles the energy. Even from 40 to 50 knots is 1.5x more energy.

Unfortunately our brains don't work like that, so we think of the jump from 40 to 50 as being a small one. It takes a lot of time for this energy to be put into the sea, much longer than the a gust lasts, even though the gust might spume off the crest.

On the southern ocean, fetch is still limited by the size of the system, and the distance and time the wind has been blowing for.

The almost constant swell is an issue, combining with the wind waves to increase the significant height. At times features like wave fronts can be a big problem, but the same issues occur in every ocean.

It can be very nasty in the southern ocean, but so can the north Atlantic. I'm not really convinced on average the southern ocean is much different than anywhere else, just much bigger.
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 14:24   #156
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Germany
Boat: 2ft wide dreaming chair
Posts: 311
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
And whatever it is that makes those short, steep waves in constricted waters like Med and Baltic and Great Lakes -- which can be dangerous far out of proportion to their height. I don't understand the physics of that, actually, but I've experienced it.
the main factor in the baltic is water depth combined with a short fetch area.

what's especialy dangerous in the baltic is what we call "Grundsee" in german.
it basicly means that the water depth is less than half of the waveperiod resulting in more of the actual wave body pushed above sealevel.
it's like a bar, except that the whole sea is a bar because it's so shallow.
__________________
Simonsays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 14:24   #157
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Schooner Chandlery's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: home port Washington DC
Boat: SS Crocker design #131
Posts: 977
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
We were in similar conditions in the Coral sea. For 4 days wind never dropped below 35 kts, and on the second and third days it never dropped below 40, averaging 45, hitting 48 at one time.


Fetch? As big as the weather system, thousands of miles of open ocean to windward.


Conditions were pretty crappy, but I never thought of it as a storm. Didn't even think to take video. We were comfortable enough, cooked and ate hot meals, slept when off watch, didn't need foul weather gear....


It was more annoying than anything else, I'd been planning on a nice sail lying on the trampolines watching dolphins play. That's what the original forecasts suggested....

It's always when you plan for something that it's different.

Fetch. Yes that is the big factor. Though I must say the shallows of Hecate Strait make that waterway pretty knarly .

We've sailed our 30T boat through multi day gales and note that sea state is most important--like if you've got ground swell crossing wind waves or reflections around points or islands--also it really gets much harder to move about on deck once you're over about 45kts steady winds even with steady seas.

There are a lot of little "details" that make or break how easy the experience ends up being. You don't know what those details are until you're in the middle of an adventure. ...On our boat if the winds are over 40kt from port side we can't use the bulkhead diesel heater for example. And if seas are too rough we find it almost impossible to do several needed tasks around the boat. Our boomed staysail has a jackline on the bottom third that must be retightened about every 10kt over 25 to keep that sail from scalloping. Needless to say I've swapped that out for a lower stretch line. Other details? Who knew that our NMEA signal from the wx station would be displayed delayed by a few seconds and that seconds matter in big gusty gale to storm winds with big waves that also block winds? We ended up sailing with the spreader lights on so we could see the rig waves and winds as we steered.

Lots of "huh so that's how this works (or doesn't) with big winds and/or seas...." moments in my limited experiences while sailing in gale force winds.

Biggest point was how much effort we spent slowing down the boat to easily controlled speeds. We do all we can to stay under hull speed as it makes such a difference in comfort and handling.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
"The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner." Robert Louis Stevenson

Schooner Chandlery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 14:26   #158
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
. . . So it can be very nasty in the southern ocean, but so can the north Atlantic. I'm not really convinced on average the southern ocean is much different than anywhere else.. .
My sailing grounds are the English Channel, Bay of Biscay, and North Sea, in short, the worst the North Atlantic can offer. F8 (the real one, with the pronounced streaks and the flying spindrift, not a few gusts of 35 knots) is a normal day out, a "lively sail", for us. I have a number of friends who sail here, who have spent a significant amount of time in the Southern Ocean. They all say, unanimously -- the Southern Ocean is much, much worse -- no comparison at all.

Sure it's limited by the size of the weather system, but look at the weather systems there! They seem to blow round and round and round the world without stopping, on a regular basis, unhindered by any land.

Sorry, but your attempt to be modest is not going to fly around here
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 14:38   #159
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Coming from the southern ocean, I'd say it's no worse than what you might see in the English Chanel or biscay or even the med at times. All can be deadly in the wrong conditions. Good points on the windspeeds and actual pressure on the sails, and also it's worth mentioning that cold damp air might add 10% to that pressure as opposed to warmer dryer air. It's particularly noticeable in night time squalls
__________________
monte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 14:44   #160
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
My sailing grounds are the English Channel, Bay of Biscay, and North Sea, in short, the worst the North Atlantic can offer. F8 (the real one, with the pronounced streaks and the flying spindrift, not a few gusts of 35 knots) is a normal day out, a "lively sail", for us. I have a number of friends who sail here, who have spent a significant amount of time in the Southern Ocean. They all say, unanimously -- the Southern Ocean is much, much worse -- no comparison at all.

Sure it's limited by the size of the weather system, but look at the weather systems there! They seem to blow round and round and round the world without stopping, on a regular basis, unhindered by any land.

Sorry, but your attempt to be modest is not going to fly around here
Ha,I wasn't comparing the southern ocean to the English channel, or the north sea, more the middle of the north Atlantic, well away from land, or the North Pacific. Wave heights are mostly held in check by the shallow water and lack of fetch around Europe. Biscay can get pretty nasty at times, though I never saw Biscay quite as bad as I've seen the Aussie Bight, but then I've crossed the Aussie bight many more times, so I'll put that down to the law of averages at work.

And one of our ships (the NZ pacific) was badly damaged crossing biscay, and her sisterships had survived years in the southern ocean, so all oceans have mean streaks .
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 14:46   #161
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Schooner Chandlery's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: home port Washington DC
Boat: SS Crocker design #131
Posts: 977
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonsays View Post
the main factor in the baltic is water depth combined with a short fetch area.

what's especialy dangerous in the baltic is what we call "Grundsee" in german.
it basicly means that the water depth is less than half of the waveperiod resulting in more of the actual wave body pushed above sealevel.
it's like a bar, except that the whole sea is a bar because it's so shallow.

That's like Hecate Strait. Very shallow and strange tidal flow against winds too.



Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
"The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner." Robert Louis Stevenson

Schooner Chandlery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 15:04   #162
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40
Posts: 2,842
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Small point of order -- there is no such thing as "gusts in the F10". Beaufort forces are based on average wind speed over a significant period of time. Gusts have nothing to do with it. It can be argued that the Beaufort forces aren't actually wind speed at all, but a measure of sea state. Certainly, that's what they were originally intended to be.
Ok, we left the anchorage when it was blowing 35-40 and then it picked up to 40-45 with occasional gusts up to 50 :-)



Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
S/Y Jessabbé http://www.jessabbe.com/
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 15:06   #163
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Germany
Boat: 2ft wide dreaming chair
Posts: 311
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

to expand on my earlier post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonsays View Post
.
wave height and wave length increase linear
wave length is limited by water depth (for comparisions sake, imagine a rolling iceberg, only a part is above the surface)

average baltic sea depth is 50m*
average wave length for a 2m wave is 50m
so at that point, if the wind forces waves to build higher but the wavelength can not build up accordingly. the foot of the wave starts to interact with the ground and slows down and the wave head gets pushed higher above the surface
= unsual short period and steeper waves

*west of Gotland has a max depth of 460m but for a sea state to build up the average is a more meaningfull number.

that's pretty much how i learned it.
correct me if i am wrong please.

Edit: one more tidbit:
for recording waveheight for official weather reports, the average of the highest 1/3rd of waves is to be reported (excluding freak waves)
in return, weather reports and forcasts always refer to waveheight as "up to xyz"
__________________
Simonsays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 15:17   #164
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
Ok, we left the anchorage when it was blowing 35-40 and then it picked up to 40-45 with occasional gusts up to 50 :-)
The video was done while we had a consistent 40 knots plus, but no gusting above 50 knots. The wind was very steady that day staying between 40 and 49 knots.
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2016, 16:45   #165
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The video was done while we had a consistent 40 knots plus, but no gusting above 50 knots. The wind was very steady that day staying between 40 and 49 knots.
Meltemi conditions in the Aegean. A marvelous ride

I like it like that.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
oyster, yacht

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Oyster 53 vs Oyster 56 thoreed Monohull Sailboats 7 08-03-2015 22:09
For Sale: Oyster 39 Cruising yacht tamboat Classifieds Archive 0 31-05-2012 00:43



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:41.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.