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Old 08-02-2016, 07:33   #136
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
ODAS buoy data would be interesting, but there are not so many ODAS buoys around and one typically won't have Internet access when the waves are big.


Hmmm. Perhaps it's been pulled from the App Store. :-(

That's too bad if it's not available anymore. It does not use buoy data or need wifi, it's simply a measuring device (presumably using the gyroscope and accelerometer). It only cost $1 if I recall.

The name of the developer was lamventions.com
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:03   #137
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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I cant download video.

I don't want to criticize anyone, but also want to avoid other people adopting this sailing technique, unless carefully considered...and understood.

As I understand, boat sailed under mainsail only and engine....well... classic practice is to deploy a jib, or better a staysail, with a further reef on main, and no! Engine!

Engine, if necessary, was used to avoid stopping between waves!? In 40+ winds I doubt so, and btw a main reefed at 75% seems way too large in such conditions.

I agree that speed is required to avoid the boat steering upwind after rolling downwind, but, again...surfing with a displacement boat is just dangerous in big seas.

Sorry if I tend to disagree with your tactics.. I believe you will act differently so far you repair your staysail furler :-)
..
Finally, we may suppose that, on reaching, your apparent wind was a bit lower than stated, wasn't it!?
That channel is narrow and dangerous, and winds always surge through it.

Good to get through it safe&clean on a big boat, but quite a hazard on anything below 40' LOA.

I say it to warn anyone with much lesser boats :-)
In rough conditions, not survival conditions, I've found that the using the motor makes for a more uncomfortable trip. It pushes the boat too places it doesn't want to go - decelerating into lumps of waves. Encourages greater acceleration when being pushed by waves. If the staysail was not useable then a small furled Genoa Dr downwind probably would have been usable. As far as surfing a displacement boat is concerned, I think there is a pretty wide definition of what people consider to be surfing. Going from 7kts to 9kts when coming off a wave is not the same surfing as going from 9kts to 17kts off a wave.
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:15   #138
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
In rough conditions, not survival conditions, I've found that the using the motor makes for a more uncomfortable trip. It pushes the boat too places it doesn't want to go - decelerating into lumps of waves. Encourages greater acceleration when being pushed by waves. If the staysail was not useable then a small furled Genoa Dr downwind probably would have been usable. As far as surfing a displacement boat is concerned, I think there is a pretty wide definition of what people consider to be surfing. Going from 7kts to 9kts when coming off a wave is not the same surfing as going from 9kts to 17kts off a wave.
Trying to claw upwind in hard weather I often use the motor with much reduced sail plan.

However, trying to claw upwind in hard weather is something to avoid almost at all costs.

Certainly, I prefer sail only on all other points of sail, for the reason you point out, plus you can't hear the engine when it's really blowing, which makes me uncomfortable, plus you worry about the engine's lube state when being tossed around hard. Sail as a mode of propulsion really comes into its own in hard weather, greatly stabilizing the boat, too.

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Old 08-02-2016, 14:05   #139
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
I thought I saw 47-48 kts. a couple of times on what I think was the wind speed instrument. One that Ken stated he has cross-checked with a hand-held.

Based on my own boat, I bet there's at least 5' of freeboard adjacent to the cockpit area, and the camera looked it like was mounted at least 2-3' above that. Hard to really judge from the camera distortion as has been pointed out, but when the boat was in a trough some of those waves looked pretty towering over the camera height. Hard to estimate, but if the camera is already 7-8' (maybe higher) above the waterline, then your wave height estimate has to be way low.
I based my comments on wave height based on observations. If waves are 20-25 foot as claimed, and assuming the camera is 10 feet above the waterline, then at an average peak the camera will be 21 feet (22.5/2 + 10) above mean level, and looking down at waves stretching to the horizon. In the trough, the camera is 1.5 feet (-22.5/2 + 10) below mean level, and looking at the next wave peak about 12 feet higher than the camera. Assuming the camera is relatively stable, you won't see the horizon, no matter what the camera lens is, or what the wave period is.


In my comment I noted: "Relatively consistent horizon" for this reason. There is one large wave at 30sec. that blocks the horizon by about 4 feet. I'd say it was an 11 foot wave (1.5 + 4) * 2
With that exception, what I observed is minimal/no obscuring of the horizon. In fact, most of the time I was looking down at waves, leading to my conclusion of 7 foot waves.

The stability of the ride is a testament to Oyster and the crew, and is the major advantage of boats in that size range.

Regarding the wind/sea conditions:

Beaufort 9 sea conditions are defined: High waves whose crests sometimes roll over. Dense foam is blown along wind direction. Large amounts of airborne spray may begin to reduce visibility.

My comments about puking were in jest.

Incidentally, a short period, such as the steep waves in the Gulf Stream, will provide lot more drama as they rise and fall faster and come from various directions.

Having crossed the Gulf Stream with 40 knots NE and 12 ft waves in my double reefed 50ft Catalina, I've seen 12 ft waves that feel like 30 feet. It was a bumpy ride with water over the side. I've since added a third reef in the main and a staysail with running backstays.
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Old 08-02-2016, 14:20   #140
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

The height certainly is not the issue in most cases. Ask some Great Lakes sailors about fast, steep waves. Just note what Ted Turner thought of Lake Michigan after a hard storm:
Not a pond or even a lake, it's really a sea with a mean streak

Forbes Welcome

The problem with Lake Erie, the smallest of them, is that it generally is so shallow, especially the western side, that a fairly small wind increase creates waves very rapidly, making things exciting very quickly.

Tankersteve
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Old 08-02-2016, 14:52   #141
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Passageweather.com give wave height and wind speed predictions and on our 1st Tasman crossing looking down the troughs of nice long rollers as we edged towards the high wind zones their predicted wave heights looked pretty right.
2nd crossing near two lows it was really hard to estimate the wave height. At times there seemed to be waves on top of waves. In this case I assume Passageweather give the "significant wave height" and you may get the odd rogue on top of that.
Passageweather predict up to one week ahead so in normal weather you have a fair estimate of what you are heading into.
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Old 08-02-2016, 18:28   #142
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
In rough conditions, not survival conditions, I've found that the using the motor makes for a more uncomfortable trip. It pushes the boat too places it doesn't want to go - decelerating into lumps of waves. Encourages greater acceleration when being pushed by waves. If the staysail was not useable then a small furled Genoa Dr downwind probably would have been usable. As far as surfing a displacement boat is concerned, I think there is a pretty wide definition of what people consider to be surfing. Going from 7kts to 9kts when coming off a wave is not the same surfing as going from 9kts to 17kts off a wave.
Surfing a displacement hull results in a very clear memory of its distinctiveness. There is an unmistakeable feeling: the boat "picks up", steadies, there is an intense rushing sound, and she rides forward on carpet of foam at far above maximum displacement hull speed. Unmistakeable. Simply being in the forward moving component of the wave cycle does not constitute surfing.

As to running the engine in survival conditions: I would not do so for propulsion purposes and agree with you in your description. It is in any case unnecessary. However Ken's example was comfortable/exciting sailing in rough/hard conditions, not "survival" and I don't think he'd disagree with that. In such cases I agree with dockhead and have often motorsailed through a bitch of a squall to assist angle for various reasons. The only reason to run an engine in true survival conditions is to keep charge on the batteries and/or to keep water out of the engine block. It may be that closing the seacock is impractical/impossible (for example buried under a mountain of stuff in the lazarette, in totally violent conditions), and in order to stop seawater backfilling the engine, due to multiple knockdowns running her may be considered… Of course far preferable is to close the cocks before the storm hits. It's what they're for after all…
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Old 08-02-2016, 18:52   #143
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
However Ken's example was comfortable/exciting sailing in rough conditions, not "survival" and I don't think he'd disagree with that.
That's correct.

If the forecast called for 45-60 knots, we wouldn't have been out there by choice. A 38-40 knot forecast is at our upper limit for choosing to make a short passage, plus... I calculated and thought that we would have missed it.
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Old 08-02-2016, 19:39   #144
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Hi Ken:

Nasty spot. I don't think my boat is 1/3 the weight of yours and nothing near so fancy but we sailed in similar conditions going the other way -- up wind. Sailed from South of Isola Tavolara on Sardinia to just North of Porto Vechio. Had killed my Mainsail the day before so I was running on a staysail. Very nice balance. The islands on the East side between Corsia and Sardinia sure make the waves more tolerable. Spray Hood sure makes things look comfortable.
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Old 08-02-2016, 20:18   #145
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Anyone who has actually surfed a displacement hull will remember it very clearly. There is an unmistakeable feeling: the boat "picks up", steadies, there is an intense rushing sound, and she rides forward af far above maximum displacement hull speed. Unmistakeable. Simply being in the forward moving component of the wave cycle does not constitute surfing.
You're right about sufing--it is a clear *event* and it is amazing to see the boat pick up speed like that--and it sounds like a train. We have never surfed while running or direct downwind with the waves but we've surfed along the face of waves while reaching to broad reaching --and it was very surprising the first time it happened. I didn't know you could surf across the wave just like a surfer does--did you know this?. You can. Nobody talks about it, that's for sure. They're always talking about surfing whilt running. That first time we were in larger seas, maybe 16 ft that were very steep about 25 miles off Point Sur going down the Big Sur coastline. We'd been broad reaching--almost running--but the wind picked up from the previous 20 kts to over 35 kts very quickly and we had too much mainsail up for the conditions as it happened--so we started rounding up into a beam reach due to the weather helm even though the mainsheet was released--and the boat took off literally like the proverbial "bat outta hell" going from 11 kts (a bit beyond hull speed broad reaching to start) to over 17 kts broad reaching and surfing along the face of the wave. The wave curled above us and I really wish we'd had a camara on but no such luck. It didn't break over us but instead we continued on over the top of it and into the trough of the next while we rushed to add another reef--the sail was full out pressed hard against the spreader and as we cranked the winch to pull down the sail to the next reef I remember thinking I was really glad so little of it was actually facing the wind!

The next time it happened that we surfed the face of the waves was in much smaller seas. It was like the forefoot dug in with a little shudder and the boat shot forward with amazing momentum. We were doing 8-9 kts (our hull speed is right under 10 kts) in maybe 15 kts of wind and the boat SOG would just shoot up to 14-15 kts for less than a minute we'd stay with the wave and then the wave would pass under us, breaking under the boat as it went. These were small waves (approx 8 ft) and with our 6ft or so freeboard they're not very impressive and we were surprised they were so steep but we were crossing an area where the ocean goes from deep to shallow into a fishing bank so that was part of it. We were just off Vancouver Island heading north towards Hecate Strait. The speed and associated noise as we'd surf was quite interesting. We probably would have surfed along that way off and on for a while as each wave set came it was an opportunity to surf but the shudder and the noise was disruptive to the off watch person sleeping so we would just turn a teeny bit downwind to change the angle on the wave and it would just pass under us without increasing our speed.

So yeah, surfing is "different" and I have no intention of surfing with the wave (while running) but having down this twice while broad-to-beam reaching has been...interesting...
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Old 08-02-2016, 20:47   #146
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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Hi Ken:

Nasty spot. I don't think my boat is 1/3 the weight of yours and nothing near so fancy but we sailed in similar conditions going the other way -- up wind. Sailed from South of Isola Tavolara on Sardinia to just North of Porto Vechio. Had killed my Mainsail the day before so I was running on a staysail. Very nice balance. The islands on the East side between Corsia and Sardinia sure make the waves more tolerable. Spray Hood sure makes things look comfortable.
Charlie,

It's great to hear from you.

The next day we sailed from a small cove near that fancy hotel six miles north of Portisco, had our engine quit on us just ten minutes out, then needed to sail all the way into Olbia in 30-35 knot winds. On that run into the wind, we used 30 percent main along with 1/3 Genoa. The waves were much smaller, maybe only six feet at most. The Genoa needed the UV cloth replaced because some stitching came loose, but we pulled right up to the dock with just the jib.

Then almost on cue.... The wind speed dropped to 10-15 knots, and it was beautiful. Tested the engine.... it worked fine.
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Old 09-02-2016, 04:30   #147
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

I have had similar conditions on my Oyster 435, glad to know the newer boats are as reassuring as my old girl.

Mike
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Old 09-02-2016, 06:41   #148
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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I know it's just semantics and said wrong on this forum all the time, but you're in a gale, not a storm.
lost in translation:
in german, 8 is stormy wind, 9 to 11 is storm
in english, 8 to 9 is gale, 10 is whole gale/storm
i'm sure there is differences in other languages as well.

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A few times I've climbed the ratlines or onto the cabin top to get a accurate idea of the true wave height, its amazing how as you go up in height the horizon suddenly becomes mostly clear except for the odd exceptional peak.

on ships we walk down the decks until the same thing happens, or hopefully, if we have to go up to the monkey island we know we are in big trouble!
i used to send new recruits down on to the sidestrake to get a better/ accurate wave measurement and they would always come back to the bridge astonished how perspective changes. i than had to remind them that the sidestrake was 5m above waterline which resulted in further correction of their observed wave height. Always entertaining..

this is wat force 12 looked like this weekend in Brighton:
Storm Imogen Sweeps The South Of England | Getty Images
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Old 09-02-2016, 07:58   #149
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

Enjoyed the video and music. Thanks
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Old 09-02-2016, 12:52   #150
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Re: Oyster Yacht in Storm Video

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I have had similar conditions on my Oyster 435, glad to know the newer boats are as reassuring as my old girl.

Mike
Mike,

I'm surprised more people haven't chimed in with similar experiences. We often hear about how horrible Force 10 and above storms can be and most recreational sailors or cruisers can only imagine what it would be like (myself included), but we didn't find the 40-50 knots to be unmanageable. I'm sure upping the winds to Force 10 with 50 knots and above plus the sea state adds a whole new dimension that I really don't wish to experience.

I plan on posting another very short video sometime in the next week showing my wife at the helm running downwind in 40 knots under bare poles... Again, it was not a big deal. Kinda fun actually.
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