Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

[boatman61]

I am amazed..
Notepads, pencils, compasses, bino's, AIS, Radar...
Just to cross the English Channel..
No wonder folk think sailing is complicated..��
Day or night all one really needs is the steering compass and decent MK1 eyeball .
Mind.. I developed my techniques back in the last century when shipping was much more busy.. back then (70-80's) it was a seeming endless column 3 or more deep.. these days its considered busy if one see's 20 - 30 in a crossing..
So I lean toward smug superiority from time to time..
Forgive my amusement

[MarkJ]

Pollux,

I disagree that the constant changing speed and course is as problematic as you describe because AIS only transmits once per 30 seconds so the effective plot is fairly well averaged.

My speed doesn't vary up to 9kts... I start dancing at 7 but, yes, that means speed can easily double, and course too. But it certainly has not made any difficulties.

As for the motor sailing bit, yes a radio call advising the rules you are running under would be nice. But as we have been discussing many ships have altered before you are in VHF range.
I certainly don't ring up ships at 5 nms. If at all its about 1nm or so.

Maybe next you're at sea just do as we suggest and see if you have a more relaxing and just as safe trip.


Mark

[conachair]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I am amazed..
Notepads, pencils, compasses, bino's, AIS, Radar...
Just to cross the English Channel..
No wonder folk think sailing is complicated..��
Day or night all one really needs is the steering compass and decent MK1 eyeball .
Mind.. I developed my techniques back in the last century when shipping was much more busy.. back then (70-80's) it was a seeming endless column 3 or more deep.. these days its considered busy if one see's 20 - 30 in a crossing..
So I lean toward smug superiority from time to time..
Forgive my amusement

+1

A bit anyway, would hate to not have AIS now that the easy life has been experienced

But we didn't all die back then, the channel is a bit stressy but not that bad.
Is it?

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Pollux,

I disagree that the constant changing speed and course is as problematic as you describe because AIS only transmits once per 30 seconds so the effective plot is fairly well averaged.

My speed doesn't vary up to 9kts... I start dancing at 7 but, yes, that means speed can easily double, and course too. But it certainly has not made any difficulties.

As for the motor sailing bit, yes a radio call advising the rules you are running under would be nice. But as we have been discussing many ships have altered before you are in VHF range.
I certainly don't ring up ships at 5 nms. If at all its about 1nm or so.

Maybe next you're at sea just do as we suggest and see if you have a more relaxing and just as safe trip.


Mark

When I was sailing the waters under discussion we had no AIS so the speed and course variations would have to be observed either visually or by radar plots.


Under sail in a 'stand on' situation I would maintain as best as possible a constant heading, speed too but accepting that it would vary a bit but the average over a period would be pretty steady. I would take particular care over maintaining a consistent average speed and heading when in visual range of the other vessel(s).

AS for motor sailing, it is not something I like or regularly indulge. My boats have always been capable of maintaining reasonable passage speeds in all conditions without the need for engine assist and when they did not then the headsail was removed or rolled away and the motor put on, the mainsail still up merely for stability/roll resistance. In very strong winds I would occasionally sail under headsail alone, no motor needed then of course. I learned early on not to motor with all sail up when my then boat woul 'lurch' on a wave crest and the oil pump suck air setting off the oil pressure alarm. Thereafter it became an absolute rule never to motor with all sails pulling. In my case therefore if you see a headsail I am NOT motoring but accept that might not be obvious to the 'never been sailing' OOW of a ship. I carried a motoring cone for years in Europe, occasionally hoisted it too but not many did/do. I even considered a black corner patch on the headsail to leave visible as a quick display cone shape but decided against. Nighttime is easy because the steaming light says it plainly. Now we live and cruise in Disneyland I don't recall seeing a motor cone in use, despite living on the ICW where everyone motors 99% of the time with it's skinny waters, narrow channels to follow, bridges to negotiate etc. We transmit AIS listing us as a 'sailboat' but not stating if proceeding under sail or power so apologies for creating confusion to all others encountering us if we are motoring with the headsail rolled away and the mainsail still up.( although with our now 'wrinklies' rig we could just roll that sail away too into the mast) I had to really hunt to find a motoring cone dayshape and in truth only did so to show in a voluntary USCG check to get our ' OK guys leave us alone' decal, but in the event they weren't even interested anyway.

I Would not be surprised and even be thankful that most commercials assume sails up equal sailing even though it would prick my conscience somewhat to be given way to unnecessarily.

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by conachair

+1

A bit anyway, would hate to not have AIS now that the easy life has been experienced

But we didn't all die back then, the channel is a bit stressy but not that bad.
Is it?

Only stressy really in the area of the 'lanes' as in the straight line routes betwixt the TSSs I had the 'lanes areas' marked on my charts and you could see their sharp definition pretty well in practice with the no go ( go fix lunch/breakfast dear' area in between, just look out for the 50kt fast ferries sneaking up from behind, TGF noisy engines on those!
The one good thing that stands out is that big ships are predictable, they basically like to go in straight lines at constant speed. Fishing boats and WAFIs and MAFIs are not predictable and often do not transmit AIS although that may have changed since we moved away.

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I am amazed..
Notepads, pencils, compasses, bino's, AIS, Radar...
Just to cross the English Channel..
No wonder folk think sailing is complicated..��
Day or night all one really needs is the steering compass and decent MK1 eyeball .
Mind.. I developed my techniques back in the last century when shipping was much more busy.. back then (70-80's) it was a seeming endless column 3 or more deep.. these days its considered busy if one see's 20 - 30 in a crossing..
So I lean toward smug superiority from time to time..
Forgive my amusement

amuse away, we learned around the same time I would guess and what a solid foundation that gave! I despair at some of the space invader newbies around in the new millenium[/POKEFUN]

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]I am amazed..
Notepads, pencils, compasses, bino's, AIS, Radar...
Just to cross the English Channel..
No wonder folk think sailing is complicated..��
Day or night all one really needs is the steering compass and decent MK1 eyeball . . . .

And a whole lot of luck

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Robin3

. . . I carried a motoring cone for years in Europe, occasionally hoisted it too but not many did/do. I even considered a black corner patch on the headsail to leave visible as a quick display cone shape but decided against. Nighttime is easy because the steaming light says it plainly. Now we live and cruise in Disneyland I don't recall seeing a motor cone in use, despite living on the ICW where everyone motors 99% of the time with it's skinny waters, narrow channels to follow, bridges to negotiate etc. We transmit AIS listing us as a 'sailboat' but not stating if proceeding under sail or power so apologies for creating confusion to all others encountering us if we are motoring with the headsail rolled away and the mainsail still up.( although with our now 'wrinklies' rig we could just roll that sail away too into the mast) I had to really hunt to find a motoring cone dayshape and in truth only did so to show in a voluntary USCG check to get our ' OK guys leave us alone' decal, but in the event they weren't even interested anyway.

I Would not be surprised and even be thankful that most commercials assume sails up equal sailing even though it would prick my conscience somewhat to be given way to unnecessarily.

I don't think it's a big deal. I do actually use a motoring cone when motor sailing (the Dutch and Germans will fine you for not using it, BTW), but my observation is that ships never see it and always assume you're under sail if they see sails. That's what I would do in their place. I don't know why you would feel guilty for their giving way; I'm sure they are more than happy to have the active role. If I were a commercial mariner, I would HATE standing on to some WAFI who most likely would screw up the crossing in one way or the other. It would be an awful position to be in, and I think you'd find any excuse to not do it and so take control of the crossing.

The main thing is to figure out what they are doing early enough to take the proper action. If you are motor sailing and are the port side vessel, and if you maneuver early enough, then the issue probably won't arise anyway. Once again, you have to be capable of determining whether he has, in fact, maneuvered to create an acceptable CPA, or not, and you can't do that just be eyeballing with the Mk I's.

[CHAZ]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I am amazed..
Notepads, pencils, compasses, bino's, AIS, Radar...
Just to cross the English Channel..
No wonder folk think sailing is complicated..��
Day or night all one really needs is the steering compass and decent MK1 eyeball .
Mind.. I developed my techniques back in the last century when shipping was much more busy.. back then (70-80's) it was a seeming endless column 3 or more deep.. these days its considered busy if one see's 20 - 30 in a crossing..
So I lean toward smug superiority from time to time..
Forgive my amusement

During night crossings from Estepona, Spain to Ceuta, also Spain but already in Africa, mostly for training reasons (position/navigation lights reading) the craziest/scariest stuff out there were the 'smugglers' with their unlit speedboats trying to outrun the 'others' during those really dark nights amidst the big bad dark ships it became suddenly important to take care of own position lights and enjoy owns watch on these moon less nights in a kind of fatalistic stupor . (these were the 70/80ties)

Nowadays it is different it's electric and organized, no space for wafis, mafis and other fishermen

Fair Winds and good luck to all
Martin

[Polux]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Pollux,

I disagree that the constant changing speed and course is as problematic as you describe because AIS only transmits once per 30 seconds so the effective plot is fairly well averaged.
.....
I certainly don't ring up ships at 5 nms. If at all its about 1nm or so.

Maybe next you're at sea just do as we suggest and see if you have a more relaxing and just as safe trip.

Mark

Mark if you are changing speed and course you are failing to go according to COLREGS while stand on vessel and how can a ship adjust course to a boat that is changing speed and course?

How can I have a more relaxing and safe trip while I have to contact by VHF ships at 1nm distance, to understand their intentions, while maintaining the stand on status, while doing what I do I am never at 1nm from the ship? and not depending on the ship seeing me or in whatever they are going to do (or not) to avoiding me, while doing what I do, I do only depend on me?

Originally Posted by monte

... I guess I'm with Polux on this. I've never had a ship complain. I'd be interested to hear if they prefer me to stand on or make a small course correction in that case, possibly causing the OOW to wake the captain etc. Of course the wind can also force us to make course corrections in that case, as can starting the engine and turning on the steaming light..
Obviously Marks screenshot is a perfect example of why we need to hold course and speed when more than two vessels are involved.

Cheers to you. I was quite lonely on this one. Glad to agree with you on something
Just kidding I know we have a lot more in common than some divergences seem to indicate and for starters the use of sails much more than engine while cruising, even upwind.

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by monte

I've never had a ship complain. I'd be interested to hear if they prefer me to stand on or make a small course correction in that case, possibly causing the OOW to wake the captain etc. Of course the wind can also force us to make course corrections in that case, as can starting the engine and turning on the steaming light..
Obviously Marks screenshot is a perfect example of why we need to hold course and speed when more than two vessels are involved.

Monte, I'd be happy for myself and the OOW's to alter course for a sailing boat, keeps the boys (and girls on their toes.)
Mind you, if the woke me up they might be looking for a new job

At the end of the day you can fall back on Rule 2, but be careful to note the bit about the ordinary practice of seaman, which can be construed to mean, amongst other things, a good working knowledge of the Colregs.

[CHAZ]

Originally Posted by Polux

Mark if you are changing speed and course you are failing to go according to COLREGS while stand on vessel and how can a ship adjust course to a boat that is changing speed and course?

How can I have a more relaxing and safe trip while I have to contact by VHF ships at 1nm distance, to understand their intentions, while maintaining the stand on status, while doing what I do I am never at 1nm from the ship? and not depending on the ship seeing me or in whatever they are going to do (or not) to avoiding me, while doing what I do, I do only depend on me?




Cheers to you. I was quite lonely on this one. Glad to agree with you on something
Just kidding I know we have a lot more in common than some divergences seem to indicate and for starters the use of sails much more than engine while cruising, even upwind.

Polux you're not alone out there
Enjoy your luck

Fair winds
Martin

[monte]

A bit Of confusion above. Some mentioned 1mile, 5 miles etc. They are referring to the CPA distance and distance to CPA, though not very clearly. I do t think Polux radios ships if the CPA distance is 5miles, but rather he does it 5miles before a close CPA distance. Likewise, Mark doesn't wait till the ship is 1 mile off his bow before calling, he does it when the CPA distance shows under 1 mile in some situations...


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Exile]

Originally Posted by monte

A bit Of confusion above. Some mentioned 1mile, 5 miles etc. They are referring to the CPA distance and distance to CPA, though not very clearly. I do t think Polux radios ships if the CPA distance is 5miles, but rather he does it 5miles before a close CPA distance. Likewise, Mark doesn't wait till the ship is 1 mile off his bow before calling, he does it when the CPA distance shows under 1 mile in some situations...


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Monte -- I may have read your prior post incorrectly, but I thought you described a scenario with an oncoming ship you saw on AIS 15 miles away working itself around a headland. I got the impression the ship was therefore still out of sight, and thus the risk of collision had not yet arisen. Under these circumstances, you would be free to alter course because you can reasonably presume that Rule 17 does not yet apply, and thus the oncoming ship has not yet altered her course to give way.

But Polux seems to be advocating for course changes well within eyeball sighting distance, i.e. 6 nm, and then subsequent course changes after the give way ship has already altered course. Maybe he is correct that at those distances where he sails, a give way ship has not yet altered course, but Dock's point is that you can't really eyeball this, and therefore the Rules require us to presume that it has already given way. So this requires the sailboat to continue standing on until it can be reasonably & safely determine that the ship is not in fact giving way. The Colregs don't actually list or recommend distances when these events should occur, so it becomes variable depending on where you sail and what the conditions & traffic density dictate.

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but it seems like you & Polux are talking about two different scenarios.

[monte]

The scenario I described was where we are in a reciprocal course, or close to it, that would bring the CPA under 1/4 mile. Vessels may be too far apart to eyeball but close enough to monitor AIS. Clearing headlands was just a description to explain the common route. The same can go for inter island or inter port that may be many miles apart, but basically we are all navigating from one similar waypoint to the next in a lot of cases which can lead to close crossing situations. A course change before we are in sight of each other isn't prohibited by the colregs. That might be a good time to alter course adequately to open up the CPA to an acceptable distance. I guess 15 miles equates to around 45 minutes to CPA in that scenario. I think it is less of a burden for a ship under power to maintain course and speed, than it is for a sailboat. Often our course is dictated by the wind and sea and maintaining it might be impossible anyway. Several times I've been hard on the wind with a ship bearing down on us and I've had concerns that if they decide to alter course to starboard to avoid us and the wind backs, we will alter course again and reduce the CPA. I would generally rather bear away a little well ahead of time and reduce the chances of that happening. Similarly heading downwind we are happy to sail at 175 degrees apparent, but not 180, so we would prefer take the initiative to open up the CPA and make a good choice on which side we might pass that will allow for some variation in the wind direction without decreasing the CPA. Of course all of this is made much easier with AIS and occasionally MARPA, but we still use the HBC and binoc's with compass quite a bit. There's so many possible variations of crossings that it's difficult to judge someone else's methods purely on textbook scenarios. Obviously the idea that tonnage rules is ridiculous, especially where more than two vessels are involved. I would rarely alter course within 45 minutes of CPA unless it was after discussion with the other vessel. I usually contact the other vessel with a passing strategy and confirm its ok with them. 90% of the time it's just confirming we will pass starboard to starboard. Most days I never do that, some days I do it once. It's not like I'm calling every ship that passes within 5 miles to make sure they've seen us. High traffic areas I just rely on the steering rules and hope everyone else is doing the same. Sometimes a 1/4 mile CPA is unavoidable. On two occasions I've had to alter course and speed as the stand on vessel to avoid a collision. One was off Portugal, a ship 1/4 mile off our beam as we sailed downwind, crossing at right angles with a 50' CPA in 5 minutes doing 11kn. Fun dropping the spinnaker in 25kn for that prick. The other was in gib harbour, a Spanish ship trying to upset the poms by motoring in and out of their territory and almost over the top of us.