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Old 10-01-2016, 09:33   #31
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

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Good God. That is almost impossible to believe.

Not really, I've sailed with a few and sacked some.
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Old 10-01-2016, 10:35   #32
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

Unfortunately our small vessels are only allowed to fit class B AIS transponders which large vessels can "turn off" so they still might not see you....I think fitting a radar and using guard zones is probably the only way to go, and if you can afford it, add a radar enhancer such as 'Sea-me', that and assume every vessel in your vicinity is manned by a moron and act accordingly!
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Old 10-01-2016, 11:26   #33
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

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Seamans fault. Not the fault of technology.
So if there were no technology do you think he would have been on watch?
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Old 10-01-2016, 11:49   #34
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

You can't fix stupid. Anyone who takes a tug and tow out into the Straits of Dover without an AIS transponder is stupid.
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Old 10-01-2016, 18:15   #35
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

I thought EU countries require an autopilot watch alarm.IIRC-when I was in the business,the timer was key locked & a button had to be pushed every 4? minutes to avoid a loud bridge alarm going off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge...h_alarm_system


http://www.api-marine.com/tss-watch-alarm.aspx

Cheers/ Len
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Old 11-01-2016, 01:50   #36
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

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Originally Posted by Martkimwat View Post
Unfortunately our small vessels are only allowed to fit class B AIS transponders which large vessels can "turn off" so they still might not see you....I think fitting a radar and using guard zones is probably the only way to go, and if you can afford it, add a radar enhancer such as 'Sea-me', that and assume every vessel in your vicinity is manned by a moron and act accordingly!
Well, a couple of corrections here. First of all, you are allowed to fit Class A if you want to, and the cost of these has come down. The main problem with them is that you have to program voyage data into them every time you go out, something few cruisers will remember to do, or want to go to the trouble to do.

Second, "filtering" of Class B targets, if it occurs at all (it seems that normal commmercial AIS sets are not capable of this, contrary to popular belief), will not be done in open water.


But the last point is a good one, and is required by COLREGS. Just because you are a stand-on vessel doesn't mean you can just sail along blithely and assume others will stay out of your way. You are obligated to evaluate all crossings with other vessels and take action yourself, if they don't take adequate action in good time. AIS is invaluable for this as it drastically reduces the workload required to evaluate crossings and action required.
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Old 11-01-2016, 03:24   #37
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

what scares me the most is that it seems normal these days to only have the OOW on the bridge in places like Dover Strait.
than again, 99% of ships pass through without incident..
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Old 11-01-2016, 04:36   #38
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

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Of course it is.

But human beings being what they are, I take away the following from this:

1. Don't let yourself over-rely on AIS. Not everything out that which goes crunch in the night, broadcasts it.

2. Everyone really needs to be broadcasting AIS. Imagine if that tug had been a yacht. Everyone would be dead. It's just human nature -- you don't broadcast AIS, you don't exist. I have found myself slipping into this (and gave myself a good bullocking for it).
Well, it is increasingly so in the world of big commercial vessels. Trouble is that Class B AIS is often very poor. I have noted many times sailing and other small vessels transmitting Class B only being visible at a mile or two, sometimes even less… One should not assume that even an assumed to be transmitted AIS is indeed being received in time by a fast moving large vessel.
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Old 11-01-2016, 04:42   #39
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

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Well, a couple of corrections here. First of all, you are allowed to fit Class A if you want to, and the cost of these has come down. The main problem with them is that you have to program voyage data into them every time you go out, something few cruisers will remember to do, or want to go to the trouble to do.

Second, "filtering" of Class B targets, if it occurs at all (it seems that normal commmercial AIS sets are not capable of this, contrary to popular belief), will not be done in open water.


But the last point is a good one, and is required by COLREGS. Just because you are a stand-on vessel doesn't mean you can just sail along blithely and assume others will stay out of your way. You are obligated to evaluate all crossings with other vessels and take action yourself, if they don't take adequate action in good time. AIS is invaluable for this as it drastically reduces the workload required to evaluate crossings and action required.
Whatever I think I may be transmitting, I find it is always good to assume that the bridges of vessels in the vicinity are unaware of my presence. AIS is a wonderful tool, but for me its greatest usefulness comes in giving me the information I need to manuever, and also to hail bridges as necessary. In the old days, a call of the likes of "Bulk carrier greater than 75 meters in length on course 045T, 5 nautical miles ESE of Knobby's Head" used to elicit few responses. Now when hailed with name, callsign and MMSI, I almost never fail to get a response.
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Old 11-01-2016, 04:57   #40
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

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I needed a new pair of shorts after viewing the AIS image Pete posted!
Happy - now think about doing this at night (in a force 8-9). Dockhead and I did.

I was just peachy - can't wait to do it again
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Old 11-01-2016, 04:58   #41
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

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Unfortunately our small vessels are only allowed to fit class B AIS transponders which large vessels can "turn off" so they still might not see you....I think fitting a radar and using guard zones is probably the only way to go, and if you can afford it, add a radar enhancer such as 'Sea-me', that and assume every vessel in your vicinity is manned by a moron and act accordingly!
I've talked to dozens of commercial sea captains. Never have any of them admitted to "turning off class B". I seriously doubt this is an issue
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Old 11-01-2016, 05:13   #42
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

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Happy - now think about doing this at night (in a force 8-9). Dockhead and I did.

I was just peachy - can't wait to do it again
It always seems more fun in hindsight, than it was at the time Oh, f***, what did I get myself into?" Turns into "Wow, what an adventure" after the first couple of shoreside drinks

The storm Carsten is talking about lasted for 24 hours, it started in the Dover Straits and had reached its peak the next day as we approached the turn to go around Terschelling. By this time, the huge seas had begun to break and it was pretty hairy. The North Sea is a tough bit of water. As the Germans say, Nordsee ist Mordsee.

For the record, Carsten is a very good seaman, cool and skillful under pressure. The kind of shipmate you want to have around when things are tough. After our knock-down, he hand-steered carefully downwind in the huge breaking seas, while I did air traffic control from the nav table, agreeing with all the oncoming traffic in the Terschelling TSS -- we had to sail against the traffic in the TSS for a while because we couldn't turn beam to the breaking seas to go across perpendicular as required. That was some s**t. Done carefully, calmly, and methodically, it turned out fine.
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Old 11-01-2016, 05:15   #43
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

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. . . Now when hailed with name, callsign and MMSI, I almost never fail to get a response.
My success rate in hailing commercial vessels is not better than 50%, even calling by name and call sign.

My success rate in hailing commercial vessels by DSC is exactly 0%.

I don't even know how to be sure to get through -- maybe sat phone call?
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Old 11-01-2016, 05:18   #44
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

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Well, it is increasingly so in the world of big commercial vessels. Trouble is that Class B AIS is often very poor. I have noted many times sailing and other small vessels transmitting Class B only being visible at a mile or two, sometimes even less… One should not assume that even an assumed to be transmitted AIS is indeed being received in time by a fast moving large vessel.
From time to time I consider installing a Class "A" set.

A Class "B" set if well installed with a good antenna, need not perform as poorly as in your example, but I am still not completely confident. Class "A" would be a great boon in this, but that damned voyage data programming holds me back.

In my new boat maybe I'll have both with a switch-over, so that Class "B" goes out without programming in coastal waters, but you can program the Class "A" set and switch over to it, for mixing it up in the shipping lanes or on a long passage.
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Old 11-01-2016, 05:22   #45
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Re: Over-Reliance on AIS -- Collision off Dungeness

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It always seems more fun in hindsight, than it was at the time Oh, f***, what did I get myself into?" Turns into "Wow, what an adventure" after the first couple of shoreside drinks

The storm Carsten is talking about lasted for 24 hours, and had reached its peak as we approached land near Terschelling. By this time, the huge seas had begun to break and it was pretty hairy. The North Sea is a tough bit of water. As the Germans say, Nordsee ist Mordsee.

For the record, Carsten is a very good seaman, cool and skillful under pressure. The kind of shipmate you want to have around when things are tough. After our knock-down, he hand-steered carefully downwind in the huge breaking seas, while I did air traffic control from the nav table, agreeing with all the oncoming traffic in the Terschelling TSS in the North Sea -- we had to sail against the traffic in the TSS for a while because we couldn't turn beam to the breaking seas to go across perpendicular as required. That was some s**t. Done carefully, calmly, and methodically, it turned out fine.
Dockhead - thanks for the unwarranted praise.

I'll agree we did have a few "What the F*** are doing out here" thoughts, but upon mature reflection and after our second Botanist martini, we were able to put things into their correct perspective - a slight spot of inclement weather was what we experienced
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