Our first boat please provide input.

[Scout 30]

I'm not sure where you plan to live aboard but here's a decent looking older boat with a transferrable slip at the St Pete Municipal Marina. Plus it's been repowered which is a big plus.
https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/boa...744002778.html

Here's a few more you might want to check out.
https://orlando.craigslist.org/boa/d...746047376.html
https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/boa...723924796.html
https://spacecoast.craigslist.org/bo...745388865.html

Not sure what your budget is but you can get into a cat for well under 100K.
https://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/boa...746083880.html
https://fortmyers.craigslist.org/lee...769148692.html
https://fortmyers.craigslist.org/col...767708874.html

[s/v Moondancer]

I would highly recommend you and your wife sign on as crew for a few long passages and learn the realities of water sailing">blue water sailing. Once you have experienced a few rough seas and breakdowns you will have personal experience to draw from and be able to make a better informed choice. I totally agree with the previous posts in that you must be prepared to do all or most of the work on the boat yourself. Everything is expensive. Standing rigging must be replaced and inspected regularly as do almost everything else on the boat. From a woman’s perspective and as we are often in charge of provisioning and meals, the galley must be a safe working environment in all weather and your must have enough cold storage and freezer space for extended passages. Don’t forget to learn how to fix a freezer and bring along your own Freon and gauge kit. Everything will break and the older the boat the more breaks more often.
Plan to spend at least 25 percent more than you paid for the boat before she will be extended voyage ready. The list is huge and don’t forget charts and all the spare parts you will need to carry $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Learn mechanics, electrical, plumbing and general maintenance and you may be ready for an older boat. Don’t feel bad,, my friend bought a brand new boat for a ton of money and it broke while he was sleeping! Boats are always broken in one place or another. The key is to repair promptly, prioritize repairs and keep up.

[calin1967]

Liveaboard, especially for first timer couples, means IMHO standing headroom in the saloon, spacey toilet with warm water and shower, good thermal isolation, large cockpit and (at least) two separate spaces (in case you forget again the anniversary of your wedding). The schooner has more of those, with 2 mentions: a) does not have a proper saloon (better one with a dinette on port side and the kitchen board on starboard, with more space in the middle) and b) the price is high - you are not likely to sell it easy after 2 years when you will have experience and you will realize that you need another species of kitty. I would offer 10 000 $ after making sure that the hull is sound (aluminium can hide really ugly problems). Of course you will be refused, but keep the door open, because after some months in which the owner will realize that his asking price (in par with its value, I agree) is way higher than the market value, he might think again. And another one can popup anytime. After 2 years of liveaboard and sailing you will realize if this lifestyle is for you and what kind of boat you really want. My estimation is that the probability to sail into the sunset happily in 2 years with the one you will had bought 2 years ago is 5%. So just sell it with 2k and make a decision about your life. And if you buy it make sure that every visitor empties his pockets - a copper coin dropped on the alu means a hole in one month.

[Capn Jimbo]

Nick - and I hope you're reading - I know you just posted and yes, you've received a bunch of well intended responses. However you have a few responsibilities if you are sincere:

1. You have the responsibility to perform some due diligence. There are plenty of posts on the first boat theme, and you are obligated to read them, probably before you posted. Still not too late, so please do that.

2. Those who answered you - including me - took of our time and experience to try to answer you. You in turn have the absolute obligation to repay these efforts by participating in the thread. You need to share your reactions - what you've learned and how your decision is progressing and on what basis.

I'm serious and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your sincerity, and willingness to participate in the thread and share. Others will learn from your process. Please do that.

Now for my advice.

It's clear that you are inexperienced and heading for trouble. It's good to have a dream, but first things first. The two boats - at suspiciously low prices I'd add (for a reason) - the two you linked are so different that it is clear you really don't know what you want. You've never really sailed. You've never really lived aboard. And to do both is quite a trick and requires amazing compromises that you have yet to experience.

Here in Florida they are practically giving away some mighty roomy liveaboards - and I'm not kidding for just a few thousand dollars. These boats are tired, and will never, ever be upgraded or even capable of even cruising. But many are good enough to get to the next nearby marina or mooring ball and perhaps even some limited daysailing. You can practice fixing things (but don't spend any real money), a bit of paint, polish and decoration. Some even look quite lovely - at the dock.

Worst case - you sell it for what you paid, or likely less - but your loss will be minimal.

Next - or simultaneously - be SURE to buy Don Casey's "Good Old Boat" and also his "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat"... these are NOT optional - you must buy them if you have any hope of living your dream rather than an expensive, relationship challenging nightmare.

Participate.

[boatman61]

Funny.. Everyone raves about Garcia's and Ovni's.. an '87 Garcia 44 is going for €129000 in Turkey, a 1983 Ovni 35 is going for €69500, both are aluminium designs but theres a chorus off 'Dont touch Aluminium'..
The '84 Garcia 44 I delivered had a more basic interior than this schooner has yet he paid twice what the schooners going for.
Like I said.. go aboard and get a feel, if your happy with the interior ask for a test sail before you make an offer and commit to a full survey by a reputable surveyor if she performs to your liking.
If the owner wants to sell and she is in the water he should oblige the request if you can show your not just a fender kicker.
Remember.. These are your choices not what others may choose.

[Tingum]

I like it, but then I'm a big fan of aluminum boats. It is definately a mans boat and if your lady likes it then She is a keeper. I know the design but who was the builder? Looks like a good clean up and you are good to go! If it surveys ok, make sure the surveyor is familiar with metal boats!, it looks like a deal. Much better than some plastic toy!, a good strong cruiser. Schooner are easy to sail, they just don't like going to weather, but then who does!

[LittleWing77]

Hi Nick,

I'm with the majority: stay away from that one-off aluminum schooner! Ugh. What an Albatross that will be for newbie sailors.

Of the two, at least the Morgan is more simple and straightforward (the type of boat newer sailors would need) but I also agree with an earlier poster - what's the state of the engine? It does seem a little tired (consider: engine replacement could run you $10,000-20,000 in engine + Labour costs) The Monitor self-steering wind vane is the best, however. Like a third crewmember on long passages when you'll both be sick of hand-steering. But there are many more other pertinent elements to consider for a sailing couple. (I'm just a biased single-hander, so I tend to salivate over good self-steering gear. )

Let us know how your search progresses and what you ultimately choose, will you?
Fair winds,
Little Wing

[LittleWing77]

Sorry - one more thing about that Morgan. I recently went to see a lovely 'good old boat' in a yard in Bristol, RI. The pics showed a lovely, well-maintained fair hull - all of the starboard side.

When I got to the yard, it was clear that the port side below the waterline had been in some sort of significant collision (which turned out to be hurricane damage). I note for you that the Morgan pics only depict the S-board side. Ensure that when/if you go see that boat in person that you closely go over the port side from stem to stern!

Best wishes,
Little Wing

[dakno]

Geez, I can empathize with you. Everybody is right to some degree, everybody is wrong to some degree. The AL boat, homebuilt, AL, someone spent 10+ years of their life plus every $ they earned putting it together and it blew up in their face. Interior looks as though they ran out of $ and did whatever they could to complete. The skill level of the mechanical systems appears good. The monetary value is the salvage value. Did you notice how the paint was flaking off of the deck? Bad sign , and no pics of frames...stay away, this can only end badly. This is a heavily maintaince intensive boat if all was done correctly ... guess. Morgan looks good cosmetically but a rusty engine? No sailor will tolerate a rusty engine room, ..strange, also sails look beat. Keep looking, Morgan needing sails is okay, but the funky engine room scares me. You don't need a starter boat. You can hire a instructor for 20 hours and figure it out on a large boat. Good luck

[Scout 30]

This appears to be a big waste of our time.

[NickWallace]

Wow, I did not expect to receive so many replies so quickly! First of all thank you for all of your advice. There was a lot of good information put out, and we have decided to not limit the search to only those two options and instead take our time in this decision since we intend to keep it long term. I am glad we obtained more information on the Schooner and Morgan 382. We will continue our search and be looking in the 35-40’ range and stay away from the custom builds. Unfortunately we do not have the ability to start small and work our way up, what we buy we will need to be able to live in, and would in theory like to keep, pay off in two years while we gain experience, and then begin the adventure. This lifestyle has been in the planning phase since I was discharged from the Navy two and half years ago. Since then we have been slowly but surely converting to a more minimalist nomadic lifestyle on land while we worked towards our ultimate goal of traveling the world. We have only now began the search for a good used sailboat and have another 2 months to make a decision. Thank you again for your responsiveness and advice. It has given me much to consider and I will take that forward with us while we continue our search.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by NickWallace

My wife and I are looking at purchasing our first boat in the Tampa area. Our plan is to live aboard in a marina at first, and then eventually sail internationally. We are novice sailors and will be taking lessons in the years to come before attempting a long voyage. The link below is to the boat we are looking at, my main concern is what is the minimum crew it would require? https://www.boattrader.com/listing/1...-44-103437004/ It is a 1985 Custom Schooner 44 and appears to be quite manual, it will be only my wife and I as crew, and I want to make sure that we are not biting off more than we can chew. Also what are your thoughts on the boat in general as in its live aboard ability as well as ocean crossing capability? The only other boat we are considering at this point is this 1979 Morgan 382, https://www.boattrader.com/listing/1...382-103463569/ if you have the time to check this one out as well I would like to ask for your thoughts as well as how the two boats compare. Thank you for your time.

Two words..... MONEY PIT

[danielamartindm]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "...my main concern is what is the minimum crew it would require? "

The specific answer is "one". One person is all that is required.

However, your asking the question, as you do, reveals that it will be a good long time before you'd be able to handle the boat (either of them) alone on any significant voyage.

There are two discrete aspects to "cruising" - whatever you mean by that term. There is a) boat handling, and b) skippering. The former I can teach you in a week-end - in either of these two boats, or in any other for that matter. The latter takes a lifetime to learn and the people who have given you good advice above will bear that out.

There is a third aspect to "cruising" in the sense that you seem to mean the word: The art of living aboard, living small, living without the conveniences landlubbers seem to have difficulty living without. Men who make their living on the sea are acutely aware of what it takes not only in terms of material minimalism but also in terms of attitude adjustment because "cabin fever" is not a rare occurrence.

Quote: "... and appears to be quite manual..."

Good! That is exactly what you want. Complexities are not necessary, and can only detract not only from the pleasure of cruising, but more particularly from the time spent cruising rather than repairing, and from the cruising funds that remain available to buy the pleasures of cruising because complexities gobble up repair funds at a rate that landlubbers rarely have any idea of.

You may WANT a watermaker, you may WANT a generator. That doesn't mean that you NEED them. What may serve you even better, if you want them, is an attitude adjustment. You may WANT a chartplotter, but you don't need one. What you absolutely need to learn to become a skipper, is to navigate. For that, all you need is paper charts, a sharp pencil, two draftsman's triangles, a cheap wristwatch from Walmart, and your wits about you. In slow moving boats you don't even need a bearing compass. Your steering compass will do the job.

As for minimizing the crew, being able to singlehand the boat, even when there are other people aboard, which is a situation many men find themselves in, it all depends on how your running rigging is set up, principally in regard to the ease of making, reefing and striking sail. Performing those functions with ease - i.e. by yourself - relies on having OLD-FASHIONED gear. Eschew, until you have a LOT of experience in MAINTENANCE, all the fancy gear that is promoted by the glossy boating mags.

As for how boats compare against each other, that question is not really of any importance. There are very few out'n'out dogs, and it will be quite a while before you, at the helm, will be able to discern the differences. Almost any boat can be made to do the job you want to have it do for you. What matters is YOUR knowledge of how to set it up. As for the below-decks arrangements they don't matter much. In a week of living in any given boat you adjust yourself to what the arrangements are.

Reading between the lines I would think that the biggest favour you can do yourself at this time is to go and join a sailing club. Any respectable club, of which there must be many in the Tampa area, will offer courses where novices will be "shown the ropes" by experienced people. A major benefit of belonging to a club, and taking courses there, is that you will have the opportunity to test the waters and determine if sailing really IS for you before you commit funds to something that for a great many people turns out to be a disappointment.

All the best,

TrentePieds

A lot of wisdom crammed into one post!

[nortonscove]

Was fortunate to have met a great couple of professional tall ship captains a few years ago and have remained in contact with them since. They are now nearing a dozen years aboard. They originally hailed from Amsterdam. At the time I was looking for my first boat and took the opportunity to ask about my choices.

The answer was to get the most modern design I could afford. In their experience the idea of buying a boat for the storm of the century seemed to be a recipe for unhappy cruising. His advice was based upon the high percentage of time spent at anchor or docked while in a cave. He had a mass produced boat that he has since rounded the Cape half a dozen times in. I went with a 1994 Beneteau and couldn't be happier.

[Scout 30]

Every choice you make in this process will be a compromise and all of the well meaning members of this forum that help you will never agree on all of the advice you receive. Although advice on the internet is often offered as fact it is more often opinion & never more so than when discussing boats. With that in mind here's my advice:
1. Buy the smallest boat that will get the job done.
2. Buy the best quality boat you can afford.
3. Buy a boat in the best condition you can find.

Regarding 1, there are many ways to measure the size of a boat & LOA is often not the best. LWL will often tell you more about speed, beam may tell you more about volume & displacement may be the best indicator of how much boat you are buying.

Regarding quality, you will probably see more arguments about that subject than any other but the more you learn about boats the more you'll come to understand which
boats are higher quality.

Regarding condition, fixer uppers can be very tempting to the novice. It's hard to understand just how much work a boat can be. From the start you need to decide if you want to spend the next few years rehabbing a boat or cruising. Every repair costs more money & takes more time than you expect, even when you're experienced, & the return on every repair or upgrade is much less than the cost. The smart buyer looks for a well loved boat & lets the seller eat the depreciation.

Many will disagree with me but I think the first choice you need to make is what kind of boat do you like the looks of. For me there's no greater joy than not being able to take my eyes off of my boat as I row away from her. I learned a long time ago that life's too short to own an ugly boat. I love classic boats with lots of teak trim but many will think I'm crazy, hate teak & prefer newer Euro designs. Again, no wrong answer unless you buy the wrong boat for you.

For me the second choice that's necessary is hull design. This choice often coincides with a boat's looks. Newer Euro designs typically have bolt on fin keels & spade rudders. Classic boat designs are typically full or modified full keel hulls with encapsulated ballast and attached rudders. I prefer the latter & believe it's less vulnerable although the compromise is that it's typically slower & doesn't point as high.

Lastly, I strongly recommend that you not rush this process but take your time & enjoy it. Look at as many boats as you can. Don't be shy & don't worry about wasting a seller or Broker's time. The more boats you look at the more you'll know what your options are & what you like.

Happy hunting!