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Old 29-05-2014, 06:10   #31
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Re: No wind, sails still up?

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
And don't forget -- having some sail up also lets everyone else know that you are a SAILBOAT!
Yup and then there are guys like this:
DOESN'T ANYBODY SAIL ANYMORE? - YouTube
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Old 29-05-2014, 06:15   #32
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Re: No wind, sails still up?

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Originally Posted by mbianka View Post
Yup and then there are guys like this:
DOESN'T ANYBODY SAIL ANYMORE? - YouTube
I think the same thing LOTS of times, "why isn't that sailboat sailing since I'm going as fast sailing as he is motoring?"
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Old 29-05-2014, 22:08   #33
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Re: No Wind, Sails Still Up?

I don't advocate disobeying ColRegs, but I'm having a hard time visualizing how failing to fly the motorsailing signal can lead to a collision between your boat and some other vessel. The other vessel will have presumably decided that you are the stand on vessel, and thus will be avoiding you. The "claiming" of an undeserved advantage is perhaps rude, inconsiderate and against the regs, but should not lead to a collision with your vessel.

In a complicated traffic situation, your transgression could conceivably lead to a collision between two other vessels. This is to be avoided, obviously.

But after decades of sailing, often in fairly crowded waters (weekend SF Bay and/or Sydney Harbour for instance) I have never seen a yacht fly the day signal for motorsailing, and yet there have not been collisions as a result AFAIK. Someone will likely bring up the English Channel as an example of where the rule should be scrupulously followed, and that may well be so. Outside of my experience, and I hope that I can maintain that situation! In most yachting areas the near universal dismissal of the rule seems not to cause much difficulty.

Cheers,

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Old 29-05-2014, 22:19   #34
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Re: No Wind, Sails Still Up?

Failing to fly the motorsailor triangle may lead the guy in the sailingboat behind you to go mad with frustration trying to point as high as you, and thus end up replacing all of his sails, rigging and eventually, boat, in an effort to match you.

Or not.

M
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Old 29-05-2014, 22:27   #35
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Re: No Wind, Sails Still Up?

Colreg rule 25:

(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so.
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Old 29-05-2014, 23:22   #36
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Re: No wind, sails still up?

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Sailorboy1,

One doesn't fly it from the spreader, but in the forward part of the rigging, where it is more visible. I saw one, once, in use while we were on the West Coast of USA, and I know a guy who has one on his 40 footer. That's a different one for each 15 yrs.

I agree, though, that if people would use them, it would clarify the situation, and hence, is a courtesy.

General ignorance of the colregs, I suspect, is more prevalent outside Europe, and may be almost non-existant in other areas. It's a big ol' world.

Ann
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Old 29-05-2014, 23:47   #37
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Re: No Wind, Sails Still Up?

> General ignorance... may be almost non-existant in other areas

<begin pedant mode>
If general ignorance is non-existant that means that everyone is fully conversant with Colregs. I doubt that is what you meant
<end pedant mode>

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Old 30-05-2014, 01:04   #38
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Re: No Wind, Sails Still Up?

When sails are full I could find my boat tricky for a safe sudden avoidance manoeuvre in a restricted seaway even if the motor was ticking over.
I hope my flying the upside down cone in obedience to Colregs wouldn't indicate to motor boaters they could be less careful around me.
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Old 30-05-2014, 04:52   #39
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Re: No Wind, Sails Still Up?

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Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Failing to fly the motorsailor triangle may lead the guy in the sailingboat behind you to go mad with frustration trying to point as high as you, and thus end up replacing all of his sails, rigging and eventually, boat, in an effort to match you.

Or not.

M
Guilty as charged. Since I have electric propulsion I often power the prop just enough so there is no prop drag in light winds. Gives a nice little bump in speed at the cost of very few amps. I would never do that when I had a diesel engine. But, with EP you can and since it is so quiet it is almost like sailing without an engine. Must drive the tricked out racer abeam of me nuts. Especially since he can not see any exhaust out the stern as I pass by.
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Old 30-05-2014, 07:57   #40
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Re: No wind, sails still up?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Sailorboy1,

One doesn't fly it from the spreader, but in the forward part of the rigging, where it is more visible. I saw one, once, in use while we were on the West Coast of USA, and I know a guy who has one on his 40 footer. That's a different one for each 15 yrs.

Ann

You are correct of course, that is the way it is supposed to be flown. The question I have is how many vessels are actually equipped from the factory with a facility for doing this. Mine is not. My only option for flying one is from the spreader. Flying it from forward would require a pully on the mast and a line forward of the mainsheet to get it out in front of the jib. I tried using my spinnaker halyard once (fractional rig, spinnaker halyard exits 4 feet above the forestay), but I could not attach the downline anywhere that did not interfere with my self tending jib. I would bet this is a common problem. On a mast head rig it might well be impossible to get the thing out in front of the jib at all in which case it would be no better that being flown from a spreader. Perhaps the solution is one on each side of the boat so that it can be seen from both sides.
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Old 30-05-2014, 08:16   #41
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Re: No Wind, Sails Still Up?

New on my projects list is to read the Colregs.

For those interested, Plastimo has reasonably priced day marks: Defender.com Search Results: day shape
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Old 30-05-2014, 10:37   #42
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Re: No Wind, Sails Still Up?

Too lazy to take it down if you think the wind is going to come up again. Sometimes it's worth it to take it down and just sail with a spinn, you'll catch more breeze tht way, although of course you can't really go upwind.
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Old 30-05-2014, 10:43   #43
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Re: No wind, sails still up?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
You might have a gander at Rule 19, the term engine is also used ( as in " have her engines ready " )
Rule 19 does not address signals, it only addresses requirements of vessels traveling in Restricted Visibility. It also states:

(b) Every vessel shall proceed at a safe speed adapted to the prevailing circumstances and conditions of restricted visibility. A power-driven vessel shall have her engines ready for immediate maneuver.

You are not a power driven vessel simply because your engines are on. The word "driven" matters. If the engines are not providing propulsion, then the vessel is not "driven" by them. A sailboat is not a power driven vessel until it is under propulsion by them. the mere act of having them on does not convert you to a power driven vessel.

EDIT: Rule 3 provides for general definitions.

(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
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Old 30-05-2014, 10:53   #44
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Re: No Wind, Sails Still Up?

If you've even been in the Oakland estuary when all the stinkboaters return from the Fleet Week parade of ships, you'd understand the need for the steadying effect of a hoisted main when motoring. That's the nearest I've been to puking on my boat.

If the main starts flogging, that's nature's way of telling you that there's enough wind to start sailing again.

We'll regularly start sailing in the South Bay, have the wind drop completely around the Bay Bridge, so start the engine but keep the main up. As you clear the lee of the Bay Bridge the wind picks up again.
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Old 30-05-2014, 11:17   #45
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Re: No Wind, Sails Still Up?

Chapman shows the dayshape flown from a spreader.

In my earlier post about vessels under 12 meters in length being exempt from the rule, that only applies to Inland Rules but not International Rules.
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