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Old 28-02-2013, 13:42   #46
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Rognvald had an unpleasant experience with a J22 whose skipper probably just wanted to go racing, not deal with the scratch he'd put in R's boat. I can see how such an incident would affect R's point of view, considering that he might still have angry feelings about "sailors hotdogging", based on that skipper's rudness and the damage done. And we all know sometimes racers do not behave considerately.

However, what I think is really sad here is that the OP is actually going to be a lot safer sailor and less likely to collide with someone for practicing his maneuvering using his sails only, and Rognvald doesn't seem to understand that....

All the racing dinghies including the Etchell's and all the kids learning to sail in small dinghies have to sail from the place in the marina where they are launched out of the marina to where they are going to be sailed. This isn't about hotdogging, it's how it is. These boats are light weight, and extremely responsive, and unlikely to cause anyone real damage.

Most marina damage I've seen has happened under power, never from the dinghies.

I applaud the OP for asking for suggestions on how to do what he wants to do, and I think he's received some pretty good ones, too. Good luck with it, mate.

Ann, thanks for the perceptive reply and if the J22 was the only incident in a marina in over 40 years of sailing everything from a sunfish to a CT56, I would certainly attribute it to chance. But, there are many "sailors," not just powerboaters, that do not practice even the least bit of courtesy when in a marina or on the water. I am not against anyone practicing their sailing skills to allow them to be a more competent skipper but, again, I just don't think a crowded marina with limited fairways is the place to do it. I certainly understand the learning process of sailing in and out of a marina and that is how I learned as well but, it is much different for a sailing pram that sails to a common dock or beached on shore than for a larger boat leaving and entering a slip in a busy marina. And, how many more accidents would you see if all marinas adopted an open policy and allowed sailors to sail into their slips? I can assure you, much more than the ones who have had mishaps under power. Does it make a difference if a 22 footer does damage to your vessel or a 40 footer? The bottom line is that marinas have adopted these policies to protect their customers from incompetent, unfortunate or inexperienced boaters. I think, as others have suggested, that those who wish to use a marina as their practice ground should find one that allows this practice. I, for one, would not be interested in keeping my boat there. Good luck and good sailing and good practicing?
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Old 28-02-2013, 14:13   #47
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

"Does it make a difference if a 22 footer does damage to your vessel or a 40 footer?"
It may well make a difference, because the heavier the boat that strikes yours is, the more damage it is likely to do to yours; its greater mass makes it just keep on crunching, whereas the dinghy is likely to bounce off.

"The bottom line is that marinas have adopted these policies to protect their customers from incompetent, unfortunate or inexperienced boaters."

I don't think so, actually; I think they do it to protect themselves from suits by vessels who are struck by others. There may be no way at all to actually protect people from incompetence, unlucky or inexperienced boaters. So many attempts to legislate safety fail.

There are some huge, very busy marinas in Southern California, where the vessels with engines are required to motor--and they even have stop lights on the fairways! But the little guys and the engine-less sail there, too! I agree with you that a busy, crowded marina with narrow fairways is not an ideal place for practice. But the OP's -- like you --berthed where he is, and therefore that's where he's needing the practice. If his engine were to fail when he approaches his berth, his ability to complete his entrance under sail can actually keep collisions from happening.

However, you should definitely pick the marina where you want to be, and if possible in a berth well away from the guys who are sailing in and out, since you're not comfy with it, that's looking after your own best interests.

Thanks for the good wishes relative to practicing and sailing. Actually, I find practice quite helpful, even though we've been cruising continuously for the last 24 yrs. It just keeps the skills "honed".

Have a good one, guys.
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Old 02-03-2013, 17:09   #48
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

The diagram is great and shows how it can be done singlehanded. Worth practicing. Have your tiller pointed in the right direction (don't tie the tiller over with a complicated knot because you'll want to free it quickly) and just walk the line back to the cockpit while pulling. A slippery reef knot on your tiller will hold it and be easy to untie. If there is any wind you should be able to sail her in and out.
If your engine dies and there is no wind then there is always sculling with the rudder or if you have a long oar and oarlock for sculling on the stern. If you rig your boat with oarlocks and have a good set of oars there is always rowing. If it is shallow you can use a long pole to pole your boat here and there. Your boat is not heavy or too large to row. If a crash is imminent then there are always fenders to deploy and a boathook with a tennis ball rigged on the end to use to fend off.
I'd rather have someone in my marina who has practiced these procedures than one who depends completely on their engine. My experience is that outboards die at the most inopportune moments when you most need them such as entering or exiting a marina.
kind regards,
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:35   #49
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

"I'd rather have someone in my marina who has practiced these procedures than one who depends completely on their engine. My experience is that outboards die at the most inopportune moments when you most need them such as entering or exiting a marina.
kind regards, " Skipper John



And your assumption from the above statement is that if you are a sailboater and suffer an engine malfunction when entering/exiting a marina under power, you wouldn't know how to use your sails because you haven't practiced in the marina? Do the physics of your sails, sheets and rudder operate in a different physical dimension while inside the marina . . . say similar to the all engulfing phenomena of a Black Hole? This is what Philosophy calls a "Non Sequitur"- an argument which its conclusion does not follow its premise.
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Old 04-03-2013, 15:13   #50
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
"I'd rather have someone in my marina who has practiced these procedures than one who depends completely on their engine. My experience is that outboards die at the most inopportune moments when you most need them such as entering or exiting a marina.
kind regards, " Skipper John



And your assumption from the above statement is that if you are a sailboater and suffer an engine malfunction when entering/exiting a marina under power, you wouldn't know how to use your sails because you haven't practiced in the marina? Do the physics of your sails, sheets and rudder operate in a different physical dimension while inside the marina . . . say similar to the all engulfing phenomena of a Black Hole? This is what Philosophy calls a "Non Sequitur"- an argument which its conclusion does not follow its premise.
Well, if you have not noticed that sailing in the open ocean is rather different from maneuvering under sail in tightly restricted waters... perhaps it is because you haven't tried it. The "physics" may be the same, but the execution is somewhat more demanding. And that, sir, is why practicing ahead of time is a good idea.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 04-03-2013, 16:36   #51
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

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Well, if you have not noticed that sailing in the open ocean is rather different from maneuvering under sail in tightly restricted waters... perhaps it is because you haven't tried it. The "physics" may be the same, but the execution is somewhat more demanding. And that, sir, is why practicing ahead of time is a good idea.

Cheers,

Jim

I think this discussion has degenerated into a personality conflict rather than dealing with the issue at hand-- practicing docking skills in a marina: an issue which I believe I have made my views quite clear. And the completely absurd and obvious statement, to all, concerning open water sailing versus manuevering in a marina panders to a truly subterraneum level in a serious discussion. So, I duly bequest the soapbox to you and others who are staunch proponents of the concept of "marina as personal playground and practice field" -- irrespective of how others might feel about your nascent and/or ongoing sailing education. I do find it quite interesting how an internet commentator assumes he/she knows a person or his/her accomplishments without ever having met or known the individual in question. I suppose that it the aura and mystique of the internet where you can be anyone you want to be with little or no challenge. The last word is yours, ad infinitum. Good luck and good sailing.
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Old 04-03-2013, 16:52   #52
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

I'm one more vote for sculling the whole boat and use the keel to give you drive.

You stand on the transom with the tiller raised so you can reach it. With the tiller centered rock the whole boat side to side and you will move foward at about 2 knots. I did it successfully with a J 24.
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Old 04-03-2013, 17:25   #53
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

You didn't mention whether you have any current to deal with. But, in my opinion, if the winds are too light, and you have drift to contend with, there is no safe way to sail out of a slip unless you can muscle your boat around to where it cannot drift down on anybody else's boat. Maybe if you only have two or three knots, come back later. If you get out of your slip, sounds to me like you won't have a very good sailing day anyway.
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Old 04-03-2013, 20:37   #54
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

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I'm one more vote for sculling the whole boat and use the keel to give you drive.

You stand on the transom with the tiller raised so you can reach it. With the tiller centered rock the whole boat side to side and you will move foward at about 2 knots. I did it successfully with a J 24.
And have your main up, sheeted in tight with a little belly in the sail. Its like air sculling.
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Old 04-03-2013, 21:10   #55
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

I see no problem with a small boat without engine to sail out (and in) a slip. It is discourteous if you are bouncing around other boats because you are in wind conditions over your proficiency. If you do cause any damage, you are required by law and common decency to report to the owner of affected boats, and to the marina/harbor. Practice. However, I think that it is prudent to practice in an area where you feel secure that you will not hit anyone. Pick a day with low traffic,light air, and perhaps at a dock or other place, that is out of the way. I agree with Suijin in that you want to let the wind back you up, then fall off and gather way. But, it also works to do it the way you are doing, and as Boatman61 says, give it a push to gather speed. You may have to pay off to gather speed, and tack to get to the upwind (weather) side of the fairway. At slow speeds, loose sails (look up "apparent wind" on u-tube) work well. Tighten up as you gather speed. Yes, sculling will gather some quick speed. A sailing class is a great investment to learn simple maneuvers like this. If you don't want to go to a class, ask for some tips from your dock-mates or introduce yourself at the local yacht club. Many people enjoy helping a beginner. I've been sailing for over 60 years and I still love to troll u-tube for sailing tips, and enjoy classes and seminars on boat handling and safety. I still have a lot to learn, and enjoy the help of other sailors. Have a great time on your boat!! Be safe and make lots of friends!!
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Old 05-03-2013, 00:36   #56
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Far better to practice and learn in conditions of your choice than trying it for the first time on a dark and stormy night because you have to. Picking a place to practice where you can crash without damaging boats or dock hardware is just prudent seamanship, should not even need to be talked about.
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Old 24-03-2013, 10:02   #57
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

Use your motor, please. Leave the challenges to areas where you won't be hitting other peoples boats.
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Old 24-03-2013, 11:34   #58
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
"I'd rather have someone in my marina who has practiced these procedures than one who depends completely on their engine. My experience is that outboards die at the most inopportune moments when you most need them such as entering or exiting a marina.
kind regards, " Skipper John



And your assumption from the above statement is that if you are a sailboater and suffer an engine malfunction when entering/exiting a marina under power, you wouldn't know how to use your sails because you haven't practiced in the marina? Do the physics of your sails, sheets and rudder operate in a different physical dimension while inside the marina . . . say similar to the all engulfing phenomena of a Black Hole? This is what Philosophy calls a "Non Sequitur"- an argument which its conclusion does not follow its premise.
No, what I'm saying is that when you are motoring into your slip and have your engine running and it dies just before you make it you might not know how to sail in safely if you haven't practiced. What you seem to be saying is that practicing a basic sailing procedure makes you a dangerous sailor. That's what I call a "Non Sequitur."
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Old 24-03-2013, 15:18   #59
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How about the following?

1. Hoist and sheet in main
2. Hoist jib let it fluff
3. Remove docklines, push the boat a little and jump in.. Boat will back up slowly
4. When the bow clears the slip, steer the bow away
5. Sheet in jib.. Boat will pick up speed and steer away?
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Old 24-03-2013, 18:48   #60
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Re: Need advice for sailing out of a slip in light winds

I used to do the following in my 32' Pacific Thunderbird (in a slip facing up wind).
  • Hoist sails and let luff.
  • Have a line from midship on what will be upwind side and run loop of line around a cleat on end of finger dock (or piling).
  • Push boat back and jump on.
  • When bow clear of slip, hold fast on the line to dock.
  • Boat stops moving backward and rotates in desired direction
  • Trim sails and get headway (careful, trim in just enough to stop luffing)
  • Pull line in. If line snags on dock cleat, chuck line overboard and retrieve when you get back.
I found if I didn't have a line to stop the boat from backing, I could not stop backing and start to go forward using sails alone without falling off way too far downwind.

Find and empty end-tie dock or a piling and practice before doing this in the middle of a crowded marina. Remember that you need to be moving in order to stear using rudder so there is ample opportunity to end up going where you didn't want to.
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