MOB for Couples

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The other issue I don't think enough attention is paid to, is what happens if someone goes over while clipped on. This can be a death sentence, and lots of sailors die this way. I keep a rescue knife in my life jacket, but I actually kind of doubt that I would be capable of finding it and cutting myself free, if I were being dragged alongside at 10 knots with water being forced down my throat. This is something which needs more work.

I've talked to solo sailing friends about this and their solution is a strap with loops on one end and a hook on the other to get attached to the tow rail and climb up with the loops. I've never tried it so not sure it will work. My idea is to make my way back to the sugar scoop but that also assumes I don't drown first while being dragged through the water. I just taught a fall protection safety class and those harnesses are tethered to a D-ring on the back. It makes no sense to tether to a chest D-ring, and yet we all do it because that's where the PFD manufacturers put it. I think we need to rally the manufacturers to create products that are safety tested in the real world and we have some confidence that they work. For example, fall protection harnesses have D-rings on the shoulder that someone with a hook can grab. Ummm, hello.....? Does that sound like something we could also use on the water for a MOB situation?

[Franziska]

Good thoughts Gamayun.
Even though I wonder if a D Ring at the back does not make it worse.
Like a bug lying helpless on its back and being dragged under.

Might need testing.

Another idea, if the vest would inflate in another shape, it could create a skimming surface like a micro small surfboard which ensures one stays on top and would perhaps even allow one to pull one closer.
I'm just thinking aloud out of the box...

[Steve Bean]

A resource that I've recommended before: Internet search for "lifesling case history." Reports on a hundred MOB incidents, not all involving Lifesling.

[Franziska]

Dear Steve, interesting bed time reading tonight. Thanks.

[requiem]

A few thoughts....

Attachment points: Nothing stops you from clipping into the rear of the PFD, so long as you make sure you're clipping around integral parts of the harness webbing. That also assumes the harness buckle is load-rated; if the instructions say to clip both rings that may not be a safe assumption. This is also dependent on having strong...

Crotch straps: Seem to attach using snaps or similarly-weak methods; I would be surprised if they were rated for even just bodyweight, and seem to recall hearing of a case when they broke. I wouldn't assume they serve any purpose beyond keeping the PFD from riding up, which is really unfortunate. Perhaps a lightweight ski-mo harness might be more appropriate? That still leaves the issue of...

Clipping onto the PIW: I ran across this nifty product (MOB Lifesavers | MOB Retrieval for lifejackets) which is basically a 3 m Dyneema loop. Given the reports of how hard it can be to access the harness loops even for the swimmer, this seems a simple way to bypass the problem. You just have to get close enough with a boat hook, which may be hard in heavier seas.

Finally, about the AIS/DSC/VHF/PLB: I suspect the bigger problem is getting something built and certified rather than technical problems. You also need to ensure the battery is largely unused, which isn't compatible with normal use of a radio. At least, you can get your AIS/GPS/DSC/strobe in one unit, and GPS/DSC/VHF in a second. I'm happier with that, as all-in-one devices make me nervous and can be costlier to fix or replace.

[Franziska]

Hmm, one unit with two different batteries?
Easier replaceable for the VHF part long-term for the rest?

The reason I came up with the thought of a one piece unit is, that by experience, folks do not like to lug to much kit around all day. Especially when it's sunny and hot.
Ideal would be a small&light unit which you could wear around your forearm or thigh, or like shoulder holster do not wear a vest.
Agree that certification might be the biggest hindrance.

Even though I do wonder why none of the electronics companies came up with something like this.
Price?
Maybe, but I'd think a lot of people would be in the market for it, so economies of scale could keep that at bay perhaps.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by thinwater

A few thoughts:
[LIST][*]Get something bright and buoyant in the water fast. Finding the spot is vital.
[

Something we thought of, particularly at night.

Throw the EPIRB in the water. It has a bright strobe, which can serve as a rendezvous point for boat and MOB.

It will also notify authorities in case your MOB recovery isnt successful.

AIS transmitting PLBs are also a good idea.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by psk125

To simulate more realistic drift, "keeping in sight", and "getting incapacitated back aboard", we do MOB drills using watermelons. Floating in the water, they're about the same size as a person's head, and don't blow away. Getting them aboard requires stopping the boat completely and getting a good hold. Adding a harness (if you can work it out) would enable hooking them to a winch if you want that much practice.

We used to do ours with mostly filled 25 litre water containers.
That makes them only partially bouyant and sometimes under water plus adds that extra weight, admittedly only 20kg, but does give some understanding as to how very difficult an unresponsive 80+ kg would be.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Something we thought of, particularly at night.

Throw the EPIRB in the water. It has a bright strobe, which can serve as a rendezvous point for boat and MOB.

It will also notify authorities in case your MOB recovery isnt successful.

AIS transmitting PLBs are also a good idea.

Brilliant idea.

[Paul L]

The Ais/Dsc MOB devices are probably the best electronic assistance. They mount inside an inflatable life jacket and when they operate correctly do not require the person in the water to do anything. The DSC alarm on all nearby VHF radio's will go off with the displayed position. The AIS Sart alarm and current position will show up on chartplotters. The victims boat can.use that to track the moving position of the MOB releasing the remaining crew from continuous visual tracking of the Mob.

The Eprib versions of these devices, PLB, will notify official rescue centers, which might be useful close in to areas with heavy coast guard presence and assets. Not useful.away from these areas where an official response will be many hours out. It is also not traceable by the victims boat.

The addition of a handheld VHF might be good. It has some downsides. Bulk on the outside of the watch stander means it might be less likely to be used at all times. The requirement that the victim be actively involved in its use while in the water.

As mentioned above, I don t think relying on the victim to significantly assist in their rescue is realistic. Injury, shock, hypothermia, panic, fatigue and near drowning conspire to make them useless.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by requiem

. . . Crotch straps: Seem to attach using snaps or similarly-weak methods; I would be surprised if they were rated for even just bodyweight, and seem to recall hearing of a case when they broke.. . . .

We broke one during one of our practices last summer. They are definitely not made for this duty, and that is very bad. Also very uncomfortable being lifted like that.


That was with one of our 160N small lifejackets. The 275N big ones have much bigger buckles, and the crotch straps are wide and padded. Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to hang from the top of the mast in it, and if you wouldn't want to hang from the top of your mast in it, it's probably not suitable for this, either. How many MOB deaths describe people slipping out of their life jackets. Those buckles should be far stronger.



I think you can get leg straps like from climbing harnesses, with some life jackets.

[thinwater]

A few notes:

• Towing on the back is actually better, in testing. The MOB is face up and can breath.
• Crotch straps are rate ONLY for jumping in from 2 meters with a PFD on. They are NOT rated for body weight, let alone impact. I have spoken with two manufacturers about this. In Practical Sailor mag, a few months ago, there was an article on a leg loop design that could survive 2-meter drop tests on nylon rope in relative comfort. As others have pointed out, they sometimes fail when hoisting.

[rkymtnsailor]

I've been a lake/onshore racer for more than 30 years and want to do a serious offshore race in the next couple of years. Recently most of the big races have begun to require at least some of the crew to have specific safety training. As the safety/chase boat officer at our YC for the last 6 years, I've pulled a number of folks out of the water and in the fall of '17 we had an incident where we almost lost a member (diabetic, lung issues, overweight etc) who was in 50 degree water for more than 5 minutes (his boat was out of control in heavy weather and the skipper panicked).

In light of that incident, last June our YC sponsored a US Sailing International Offshore Safety at Sea Seminar with Hands on Training. It was a real eye opener!

Finding the MOB is first and the moderator gave me a really slick gift that Spinlock makes called a "Lume-On" light https://www.spinlock.co.uk/en-us/cat...groups/lume-on which fits inside inflatable PFD's and lights up the bladder when exposed to water. The victim doesn't have to do anything.

From the weight of the MOB, soaked and weighing much more than normal to the exhaustion of being in the water for a half hour fully clothed (we were in a pool, lake temp at the time was in the 40's) getting them out is even more of a chore. Lifeslings, JonBouy's and throw ropes can all help but the key thing I got out of the class was live, hands on training from professionals is an awesome start.

If you're doing long passages, you should take the training. Here's the link https://www.ussailing.org/education/...t-sea-courses/

[waterdog]

I’m always a little disturbed when my wife describes the function of the AIS MOB transponder: “It shows his position on the plotter so that I am able to swing around and run him down and finish the job.”

[Franziska]

@waterdog

Nice one. Sometimes we know how to finish a man's job :-)