MOB and Motors Question

[markpierce]

I wouldn't use the dinghy unless the MOB was in waters too shallow for the boat, and it was safe to do so. By the time one messed around with launching a dinghy, one should have already made the recovery directly with the boat. Launching the dinghy causes delay, confusion, potential for more MOBs, and fewer people to handle the boat.

[goboatingnow]

I have found that not to be the case, but perhaps my experience and yours are different.

This is a subject. MOB techniques, that I feel passionate about. Hes why the dinhy techniques are useless.

* dinghys are set up for short handed sailing

* what crew there are ( left) are in control

* The dinghy is capable of turning on a dime

Consider the following cruising sceanario on a biggish yacht.

its daylight, 2 crew on deck, 2 off watch asleep in bunks, boat under autopilot, speed say 7 knots, wind f4 approx 1-2 metre swell , fairly typical conditons, lets make it a little easy , boats close hauled, no preventors , one headsail on a furler.

* your on crew, other crew is forward trying to sort a problem, you rummaging in the locker for something for him. you hear a cry, you look around, inevitably on the wrong side of teh boat, you look around , then out the stern maybe 2-3 boatlengths you see him waving.

* Everyones initial reaction and I mean everyone, is to go to the rail and look, then you thow the cushions,life ring etc, etc. Your plotter is below on the nav table , you run below and hit mob, , at this stage you may be 10 boats lengths away,

* your screaming MOB at the crew, who need to wake, get into weather gear">foul weather gear, get lifejackets and harness on. whats that 20-40 seconds at best ( some people are slow to respond). At this stage youve run back up and begun the figure 8 , you put the boat on a reach, easing the sheets etc. You now need the crew up before you can tack the boat.

* so now the crew are on deck, youre maybe 20 -30 boat length a way ( a really best guess, in my experience much more). You tack the boat. Now you cant see the MOB. so you detail a crew to go below and call out range and bearing to the MOB, but of course thats useless as figure 8 is not about sailing directly at the MOB and anyway try precise range and bearing sailing , is not easy.

* becuase you must get downwind of the mob, you have to sail off the MOB heading and "judge" when to swing upwind, if youre lucky youll see the MOB, and you can judge it , if not well......

* almost inevitably with figure 8 in these circumstances , you goof the first pass as you either end up above or below the MOB. its go around time.... more delay. and remember theres always, always some controlled hysteria on board as this is somebodies wife or girlfriend etc in the water. ( its not a cushion or a fender)

* if your lucky on the go around you see the mob, if you dont you now need a box search, again very difficult under sail.....


JUst where is the dinghy experience useful here.

contrast this with , stop the boat immediately , ( ie heave too, crash tack and heave to etc), roll up the headsail ( again all this can be done singlehanded, ) pin the main amidships, start the engine and go back on a reciprocal course, in all this you might even get time to hit the mob button. While your motoring back the crew will probably make to the deck in time for the rescue. ( the crash tack in my experience hastens their arrival on deck).

This is my beef with especially figure 8 but generally sail based pickups, the techniques do not scale up to real life. There too much concern with sail angles and sailing and not enough concern about teh MOB. it relies too much on having sharp crew, spotters, proper tacks etc. Doesnt take account of downwind sails, preventors on etc. ( twin headsails on poles, spinakers etc). it far too armchair based.

it too damm slow and error prone

[Tempest245]

Passion, doesn't make you correct. I think you've stated your position You don't like the figure 8. and believe that the engine is the best tool in the box

While I agree it's an important tool, many of us are quite comfortable sailing larger vessels singlehanded....if you can't manage to turn your boat around without a crew...before you get 20 or 30 boatlengths ( 4 football fields) away from a MOB....you might want to go back to dinghy sailing...;-)

I can assure you that I'm not leaving the boat in auto-pilot.sailing away from the mob....while I go below..to hit an MOB button.....

I think you can make valid arguments for your position without insulting all the sailors here.....with wild scenarios...

[goboatingnow]

Im not insulting anyone, I was decribing an actual sceanario. Very rarely in a cruising sceanario are all teh crew ready and willing etc.

Im not trying to insult anyone, what Im trying to tease out is that in the real world with "ordinary " crew on normal cruising yachts, these armchair theory plans just dont work.

Just explain to me how you would do it on a standard setup 45 foot yacht, mainsheet is on the coachroof. etc. in say a reasonable wind and wave setup , ie not the usual millpond training sceanario.

Then run it again where you can (a) see the mob and (b) cant.

Dave

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by highseas

I would never count on keeping a visual on MOB and would always immediately get the MOB pole/flag and lifering in the water ,or any bright floaty object,before doing anything else.

It is excellent to remember that we mostly practice MOB in inland waters or coastal waters with good visual references. Open ocean is something hard to simulate.

Originally Posted by estarzinger

We like a lot of cruisers almost sail just double handed. So if we have a MOB then there is by definition only one person on board to do everything.

<snip>

I don't know how I feel about the 'cut the motor one boat length from the MOB' - probably that's what I would do in any case to have a slow approach and stop by the MOB, but if say the bow started to blow off I don't think I would have any worry about giving it a bit of gas. I would rather get there and make the pick up than have to make another turn.


<snip>

I would do the pick up near the shrouds (using a halyard in rough weather) or on the transom in flat water.

When I do MOB "solo" i.e. my partner is overboard. I flog the main and only use the genny. I find the genny is as precise a throttle control as I can get. Certain wind angles you can't depower the main.

Depending on workload I would also fire up the engine in neutral "just in case" - Why not it's a safety item.

Knowing where your prop is (knowing your boat) is a big factor in engine use.

Another practice item is to always "cut power" 1 boat length from your mooring ball and practice coasting to a stop in different winds and currents.

It is also why I predominantly advocate arriving upwind of the target. If you can stop abeam the boat will always blow down to the MOB.

In practice, with the downwind arrival, unless you come in "real" close, there is a high probability to drift away from the MOB.

Originally Posted by Bash

It should also be mentioned that one of the greatest dangers to the person in the water is going to be a spinning prop. Were I in the water, I'd much prefer to be recovered by someone who was able to luff the boat up to me from the leeward than by someone who needed to motor it there.

I agree with this one Bash - except -

Originally Posted by AK_sailor

This may well be true for you driving your boat. However, what happens if YOU are the one who goes overboard? Could anyone of your crew, who may be on watch, do the same manuever with equal probability of success?

Depending on the crew I am with, their instructions are clear, start the engine first. After engine start - Flog the genny or furl it. Drop the main halyard.

Motor as best you can back to me so you get me at the side of the boat - go slow.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I would say consider all options , then use the engine!

Agree if it is necessary.

Originally Posted by markpierce

I wouldn't use the dinghy unless the MOB was in waters too shallow for the boat, and it was safe to do so.

My rule of thumb here is simple. Do not send more people off the boat than you already have. This includes swimmers. The only time I might condone a swimmer in the water is a child or an unconscious crew. Even at that the swimmer would be tethered.


Here are some drills we have done.

- Threw a ring in would channel called MOB. I was not helming. The crew made 3 passes as the ring floated to center channel. A barge under tow was approaching. he crew had to abandon the ring. It went under (completely under) the barge. It was sobering for the crew.

- I was helming. Crew was looking forward - distracted. I called Skipper overboard Port Side! (which was the lee) and threw a marker. I released the helm and sat on the pushpit and said nothing else. What a goat rope. However a valuable lesson for the crew.

There is also a bad habit you can train your crew into. That is the "running pick up. i.e. if I get the ring with the boat hook even though we are passing by at 3 knots it's a success. Wrong. The boat must be stopped abeam.

Finally - We all think we regularly practice MOB. In reality we probably don't. I think I am going to surprise the crew today...

[goboatingnow]

I can assure you that I'm not leaving the boat in auto-pilot.sailing away from the mob....while I go below..to hit an MOB button.....

In my experience, of an actual MOB, had we not got an MOB range and bearing , wed never have found him, as we had no spotter available. One of the key factors was getting the MOB pushed quickly.

Secondly the boats very difficult to tack single handed, the sheet winches are not easy reached from the helm, yes it can be done, but at a risk to the headsail.


I have done many figure 8 pickups, but the technique relies on too many things being right. and I was trying to answer evans question, that is if you have an engine, its the first port of call, sailing it is the second. ( and many years ago as I said this was teh recomendation of the experts too).

Im not stating that one shouldnt ever use the sails, sure if thats all you got that thats all you got. In a lot of cases its even harder to tack the boat, especially downwind, with preventors on and polestrapped in etc. Crossing the atlantic recently it owuld have taken us 20 mins to dismantle the down wind sails and chafe protectors etc.

Thats all the point i, making m the figure 8 runs the risk of failing as it requires too many things to go right in practice. The RYA no longer really reccomend it . ( They now say perform a sail pickup using no more then two tacks or gybes or one of each).

[Boracay]

I feel quite strongly that the time to deal with a man overboard situation is before the boat leaves the dock.

When I read a story like this my heart sinks.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by AK_sailor

This may well be true for you driving your boat. However, what happens if YOU are the one who goes overboard? Could anyone of your crew, who may be on watch, do the same manuever with equal probability of success?

In a heartbeat. My wife, who I consider "co-owner" rather than "crew," could get all 15 tons of my boat back to me far more quickly than you could drop the sails. Ten out of ten times.

When we've taken crew aboard for multi-day passages, we take them for a daysail prior to departure, and drill them in the procedure. We do this even with experienced crew, because it's not the same on a boat as heavy as ours heavy it is in the boats usually used to train sailors for "Basic Keelboat" certification. This is especially the case because of a function of our freeboard and length, which makes it hard to see the victim once you get within about ten meters of the pickup point. But at the end of the day the crew understand that if I go overboard and my wife is on deck, she gets the helm.

And the engine stays off.

[goboatingnow]

It is also why I predominantly advocate arriving upwind of the target. If you can stop abeam the boat will always blow down to the MOB.

Yes absolutly, but in heavy weather two things can happen in my experience, one is the boat can be thrown down on the MOB and hence you tend to come in fairly high on them for safety and that causes

(B) the boat once stoped, can drift and mis them or in my experience, it turns ( usually by wave action) and starts sailing. Its a tricky call and not one I want to make again in a hurry. I shudder to think of what to do in the person was unable to help themselves in those conditions, its definetly somebodies life on the line

[goboatingnow]

In a heartbeat. My wife, who I consider "co-owner" rather than "crew," could get all 15 tons of my boat back to me far more quickly than you could drop the sails. Ten out of ten times.

Your wife can get the spinaker down that quick. and release the preventor? , IN the time it takes for me to furl a roller furling headsail, i'm impressed. who does the spotter, becuase the other two crew are off watch and in their bunks.

I have to hand my hat to your good lady,mine certainly couldnt do it.

[Bash]

Let me add that I'm not casual about crew-overboard situations. As I write this, I'm anchored in a small bay where the ebb current is running at least two knots. I've enjoyed an excellent dinner with an equally excellent wine. If I went over at this point, in the dark with the fog rolling in, I'm probably going to be toast. No amount of sailing experience will save me at that point. Part of the skill set is to know not to get too casual in a rolly anchorage.

But the better part of the skill set is to keep in practice on the figure-8 crew recovery procedure. (Or whatever alternative you've been trained in.) Don't let your skills go to pot while rationalizing "I'll just turn the engine on." Your crew deserve better.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Your wife can get the spinaker down that quick. and release the preventor?

Not to brag, but my wife is far too good a sailor to need to use a preventor.

[goboatingnow]

Don't let your skills go to pot while rationalizing "I'll just turn the engine on." Your crew deserve better.

I dont think anyone is advocating not having the skills to do an MOB recovery under sail, merely arguing that if you have a functioning engine its a better bet. as a technique I prefer Quickstop anyway, becuase for me teh key is not to under any circumstances get away from the MOB. In many cases if Im quick, I can Hove-too and the MOB swims to me.

dave

[markpierce]

Hopefully, the MOB is wearing a life preserver with whistle and light, and the water isn't so cold the MOB is still functional at least after 10 to 15 minutes in the water. If alone on deck, the person should have a line connecting him/her to the boat.

[goboatingnow]

Not to brag, but my wife is far too good a sailor to need to use a preventor.

is that a serious comment. You never use a preventor