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Old 04-06-2013, 18:24   #361
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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But a least you won't get a rope burn on your hands...........

Btw, if you are a singlehander do not read the book Outerbridge Reach.
Rope burn makes the meat tender for the little fish!

You got my curiosity up, so I went to Amazon and bought the book!
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:26   #362
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post


See, the discussion has actually been useful. We saw Tor's page (those of us who went there, anyway). It's been posited that it won't work well in rough weather, but that is easily tested also the next time any of us are sailing in rough weather.

.
You are suggesting that when you are in rough weather the next time that you are going to jump over the side on a tether, cut it off and catch the drag/trip line?

I don't think so. You or anyone else.

I doubt, if your boat has any headway at all (say 3 or more knots) you could manage to cut your harness strap away. I think you would be found like Jay.
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:27   #363
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pirate Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Rope burn makes the meat tender for the little fish!

You got my curiosity up, so I went to Amazon and bought the book!
ROFL...
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:27   #364
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Ahem .... Knox Johnston routinely trailed a line on Suhaili... Most of the others sailed boats which are too fast for the idea to work

(Peter Blake though, for one, thought the idea had merit for cruising boats)

I'm not sure that it makes sense to discard ideas on the basis that you haven't seen them endorsed in the published thoughts of famous people whose needs are radically different from yours

I don't think anyone has said it's for all people or all situations. The fastest I've *documented* this boat sailing is 7.3 knots. I'd have a decent chance of grabbing the line at that speed. 6.5 was tops for the first boat I had.

I don't think I'll do anything as elaborate as Tor's examples for overriding auto pilot, but I am going to put a drogue out and see if that can force the boat to circle instead of sailing straight. Unless you're badly hurt (quite possible) or in extremely cold water (not likely for me), if weight on the trip line would cause a circle, that would slow the boat down. I'd be the first to agree that I'm unlikely to be able to gorilla myseif from 100 feet or farther up to the stern, even with loops in the line.
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:41   #365
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Knox Johnson used to dive of the bow and swim till the stern came level in 'CLEMENT' weather the line for just in case he mistimed it... not as a routine safety MOB tactic....
I'm aware of that, but I don't see how it helps the case against a tripline.
BTW: If he'd read this thread, he'd know that, 'clement' conditions or not:

a) He should not be in the sea, and given that he was there of his own volition, with nobody on board, he was clearly beyond redemption
b) There was no prospect of him grabbing the line
c) If he did accidentally grab it, there was no prospect of him hauling himself back to the boat
d) If he hauled himself back to the boat, there was no prospect of him climbing back on board.
Are you suggesting that his procedure would have somehow been less safe if his towed line had been rigged to double as a tripline?

Because unless you are, I'm puzzled that you would call him as a witness for the prosecution.
He doesn't seem to have agreed with most of their arguments.
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:55   #366
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Giving the benefit of the doubt that the perfect trip line can be rigged, I still wouldn't want it out there because I know there is about a 100% chance of it catching on something and tripping the steering--and probably when I would least like that to happen. When you are single handing the last thing you need is for something to disconnect your steering at unexpected moments. I have cruised using Walker Trailing Logs and others, and you always had to carry spare propellors because they would get lost on any sail of a significant length--most of the time you never knew what took it, but it was gone. There's lots of stuff floating around out there.
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Old 04-06-2013, 19:11   #367
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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You are suggesting that when you are in rough weather the next time that you are going to jump over the side on a tether, cut it off and catch the drag/trip line?

I don't think so. You or anyone else.

I doubt, if your boat has any headway at all (say 3 or more knots) you could manage to cut your harness strap away. I think you would be found like Jay.

Wow. In this WHOLE DISCUSSION you have learned nothing accurate, and yet still spin ever more ridiculous scenarios.

Carry on. (i love irony!)
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Old 04-06-2013, 19:17   #368
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Giving the benefit of the doubt that the perfect trip line can be rigged, I still wouldn't want it out there because I know there is about a 100% chance of it catching on something and tripping the steering--and probably when I would least like that to happen. When you are single handing the last thing you need is for something to disconnect your steering at unexpected moments. I have cruised using Walker Trailing Logs and others, and you always had to carry spare propellors because they would get lost on any sail of a significant length--most of the time you never knew what took it, but it was gone. There's lots of stuff floating around out there.

I'm sorry but ROTFL as the imagined scenarios continue. Clearly you don't know how this works or you wouldn't be spinning such a scenario. I know I've explained a couple of times how mine is made, and you're talking nonsense, but ... carry on.
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Old 04-06-2013, 19:28   #369
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pirate Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I'm aware of that, but I don't see how it helps the case against a tripline.

If you'd read and retained the content of the thread you'd have noticed I have explained how a 'trip' is set up for a boat with a tiller pilot (but then again it might have been another thread as this keeps getting thrown in so I lose track)... it relies on a boat turning head to wind when the tiller is freed... you may also note that I stated that this is subject to type of keel.... if you may recall Suhaili was a long keeled boat that he had built in India while serving out there and sailed back to the UK... having nothing better to do he then entered her in the 'Golden Globe'.... the thing about long keelers is they track very well up wind... however down wind the tiller needs 'lashing' in one way or the other... now he claims he did this in the S. Ocean as well... so... either he was as gung ho dumb as me... or he was bullshitting... but I'll tell you this much... running down wind a boat like this without the tiller fixed and set is gonna hang one way or the other and race away from you... if your waiting for it to go head to wind... Dream On big boy....
BTW: If he'd read this thread, he'd know that, 'clement' conditions or not:

a) He should not be in the sea, and given that he was there of his own volition, with nobody on board, he was clearly beyond redemption
Your obviously a 'Young Un'.... back then there was no redemption...
b) There was no prospect of him grabbing the line
He'd dived in and was swimming the length of the boat... (in trunks for the coy)... so he had the speed and anticipation... just needed a 15* alteration of course... doubt he did it with full sail and spinnaker...
c) If he did accidentally grab it, there was no prospect of him hauling himself back to the boat
Doubt he'd grab it by accident...
d) If he hauled himself back to the boat, there was no prospect of him climbing back on board.
Have you even looked at the boat...
Are you suggesting that his procedure would have somehow been less safe if his towed line had been rigged to double as a tripline?
No... show me where I said its unsafe... I have said a waste of time in anything that sails faster than Suhaili... which is 99% of todays boats

Because unless you are, I'm puzzled that you would call him as a witness for the prosecution.
He doesn't seem to have agreed with most of their arguments.
Copy and paste a statement by him that says a towed line is a life saver for a MOB.... not MOB for a voluntary swim...
As you can see... absolutely nothing on the stern he could use to climb back on board... that's why he went swimming...
if your going to try to make an argument... at least check the data first..
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Old 04-06-2013, 20:09   #370
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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OK Raku, I had a look at Tor's ideas and still don't understand how they will work. If the trip line disengages the a/p, what will your particular boat do? Let's say that you were hard on the wind as an example. Most modern boats will sail themselves to windward fairly well with a freed helm, so it would just keep on going. If you use the trip line to both disengage and to put the helm over (and with a wheel getting very much rudder angle will be difficult I suspect), then the boat will either come up some or fall off some, depending on how you have it rigged. Assuming that you want it to come up, it may go into irons and slow down... for a while. In any sort of breeze this will be a transitory position, and very soon something will change. It may fall off again and surge forward or it may tack, backwinding the jib. IMO this will not heave her to because the helm is still in the same position ,ie still turning the boat in the direction of the tack. This is now turning down wind on the new tack... and off she goes.

If you are sailing downwind and free the helm, God knows what she will do! Possibly continue onward at a rate of knots, perhaps rounding up and stopping in irons with the same caveats as above, possibly rounding down and gybing, then rounding up on the new gybe... lots of possibilities. If you use the trip line to turn the boat to windward, it could come head to wind and stop, or it could accelerate away in the increasing apparent wind. At some point the increasing weather helm that this act generates would counteract the helm angle and off she would go.

All of these scenarios are pure conjecture, and reality will depend on the sea and wind conditions and the behavior of your specific boat. To develop any real understanding of the usefulness of the trip line you will need to test under all points of sail and all sorts of wind and sea conditions. Seems a daunting task, but if you accomplish it, there are many of us who would be interested in what you find out, and will thank you for your efforts. Meanwhile, referencing the behavior of your very light 25 footer isn't very relevant. Boats of that ilk behave much more like dinghies than like cruising vessels.

Finally, in my reading of Tor's treatise he never said that he had actually tried any of his ideas out in the real world. He posits a bunch of possible means of hooking the gear up, but says nothing about having done any testing. He may have done so, but it all sounds theoretical to me. I hope that you do better!

Cheers,

Jim

I didn't study that part. I don't have an autopilot. I have a wheel pilot, an entirely different thing mechanically.

Mine is far more simple than the stuff he had at the end of the discussion. I've said ad nausuem what I expect and how I'm going to test it, and it doesn't include trying to work around an autopilot. Naturally it's his blog, and his article went in a different direction than anything by me would.
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Old 04-06-2013, 20:33   #371
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I didn't study that part. I don't have an autopilot. I have a wheel pilot, an entirely different thing mechanically.

Mine is far more simple than the stuff he had at the end of the discussion. I've said ad nausuem what I expect and how I'm going to test it, and it doesn't include trying to work around an autopilot. Naturally it's his blog, and his article went in a different direction than anything by me would.
Forgive me Raku, I thought that a "Wheelpilot" WAS an autopilot... an electro-mechanical device that steered the boat.

So, you won't expect the tripline to work when the "wheelpilot" is steering. I guess that this means that you yourself are steering, presumably in the cockpit hanging on to the wheel. An unlikely scenario for going overboard IMO.

OK then, exactly what do you expect the trip line to do? Mechanically, that is, and what do you then expect the boat to do? And while we are about it, why do you anticipate that behavior from the boat?

In my post I tried to figure out what the boat might do under differing sets of conditions. Despite your dismissal, I'm still interested in your proposed experiment(s) and hope that you will soon tell us what happened.

Cheers,

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Old 04-06-2013, 21:14   #372
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Forgive me Raku, I thought that a "Wheelpilot" WAS an autopilot... an electro-mechanical device that steered the boat.

So, you won't expect the tripline to work when the "wheelpilot" is steering. I guess that this means that you yourself are steering, presumably in the cockpit hanging on to the wheel. An unlikely scenario for going overboard IMO.

OK then, exactly what do you expect the trip line to do? Mechanically, that is, and what do you then expect the boat to do? And while we are about it, why do you anticipate that behavior from the boat?

In my post I tried to figure out what the boat might do under differing sets of conditions. Despite your dismissal, I'm still interested in your proposed experiment(s) and hope that you will soon tell us what happened.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, I've already talked about this, but you are being both polite and non-condescending, so I'll repeat.

The wheelpilot really isn't the same as an autopilot, and it is particularly sensitive in rough water. It's not reliable in rough water. In addition, we typically have somewhat confused water close to shore, and I am a coastal cruiser. I'm not going to be taking this boat to Isla Mujeres. I would not be using the wheel pilot in a storm. My boat is too tender for that.

But that might be an advantage in the scenario I'm talking about.

If the boat turns and goes in a circle when tension is put on the trip line, there WILL be times when it is depowered, and that would be the time to move forward.

Remember, this is a last ditch scenario. In spite of full netting, jack line and short tether, I ended up in the water. I would be an idiot to not try to reach the trip line.

But I believe I would also be an idiot to thread it through my steering system. Tor suggested things I would not be trying.

However, Tor is right. You don't have to jump into the water to test it. Pulling on the line is enough to tell you what effect the trip line will have.

Again, it's the difference between speculation and actually having tested the thing. I get into rough water, unless it's really a terrible storm it wouldn't drown anyone to turn the wheel pilot on and pull on the trip line to see what happens. But first of course I'll try that in calmer waters without the autohelm.

The most likely scenario FOR ME is what Dockhead put forward: falling off in calmer waters. And in that situation, I might well have the wheel pilot on, *especially* if I'm leaving the cockpit. I need to know if the use of the tripline can overpower the wheel pilot.

I don't think I dismissed your post. I just didn't want to feed the pirhanas again.
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Old 04-06-2013, 21:22   #373
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Okay so what about dragging a tripline and tying a dinghy onto it which has a boarding ladder and full survival kit?

And an outboard to catch up with the big boat?

May be we can throw in a bottle of propane and a Magma Kettle to grill the Mahi that we catch on the way with the nifty string from the survival kit in a sardine can ?!

Or, we put in the AP remote?

What about we rig a launcher triggered by that 121.5MHz receiver, which launches a huge para sea anchor off the stern to stop the boat?!

Or, we can tow a grapnel hook so we can swim to it and throw it up the lifelines so we can climb back aboard the way pirates did that!? We can yell HARRRR to make it work!

Or let's just forget all that silly stuff and go for the ultimate solution and tow this behind the boat:
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Old 04-06-2013, 21:22   #374
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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The wheelpilot really isn't the same as an autopilot,
This one seems to think that it is.

CPT Autopilot Inc.

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Old 04-06-2013, 22:15   #375
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Definitely would not have happened had their been crew. Lets mandate no
One can sail without having at least 3 people on board. That would cover most crew physical failures with a a margin of safety. Also the mandatory flare law should be updated. For the cost of flare replacement other gear could have better value although I think mandated anything should be tossed out the door. The wrecks I have seen have been alcohol induced poor judgment and stupidity. Iq test should be mandatory.that we we know your brilliant and will make good choices
Are you being sarcastic? Mandate? Like hell a mandate. Never can common sense be legislated. To potentially save some sap means to add more burden to everyone else is the wrong tack.

P.S. I am not calling Jay a sap. I have in mind the folks who shouldn't be left alone let alone on a boat.
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