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Old 04-06-2013, 16:17   #346
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Some folks do not know how to see anothers point even if it is totally correct and they are totally wrong. You guys are going to learn that soon enough.

My take once again (from the jacklines thread):

1. use a short tether when you do not believe you can swim to shore.

2. Get a small epirb and attach to your PFD. (and wear the PFD)

3. If out of range for a rescue, do not fall off.
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Old 04-06-2013, 16:26   #347
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

OK Raku, I had a look at Tor's ideas and still don't understand how they will work. If the trip line disengages the a/p, what will your particular boat do? Let's say that you were hard on the wind as an example. Most modern boats will sail themselves to windward fairly well with a freed helm, so it would just keep on going. If you use the trip line to both disengage and to put the helm over (and with a wheel getting very much rudder angle will be difficult I suspect), then the boat will either come up some or fall off some, depending on how you have it rigged. Assuming that you want it to come up, it may go into irons and slow down... for a while. In any sort of breeze this will be a transitory position, and very soon something will change. It may fall off again and surge forward or it may tack, backwinding the jib. IMO this will not heave her to because the helm is still in the same position ,ie still turning the boat in the direction of the tack. This is now turning down wind on the new tack... and off she goes.

If you are sailing downwind and free the helm, God knows what she will do! Possibly continue onward at a rate of knots, perhaps rounding up and stopping in irons with the same caveats as above, possibly rounding down and gybing, then rounding up on the new gybe... lots of possibilities. If you use the trip line to turn the boat to windward, it could come head to wind and stop, or it could accelerate away in the increasing apparent wind. At some point the increasing weather helm that this act generates would counteract the helm angle and off she would go.

All of these scenarios are pure conjecture, and reality will depend on the sea and wind conditions and the behavior of your specific boat. To develop any real understanding of the usefulness of the trip line you will need to test under all points of sail and all sorts of wind and sea conditions. Seems a daunting task, but if you accomplish it, there are many of us who would be interested in what you find out, and will thank you for your efforts. Meanwhile, referencing the behavior of your very light 25 footer isn't very relevant. Boats of that ilk behave much more like dinghies than like cruising vessels.

Finally, in my reading of Tor's treatise he never said that he had actually tried any of his ideas out in the real world. He posits a bunch of possible means of hooking the gear up, but says nothing about having done any testing. He may have done so, but it all sounds theoretical to me. I hope that you do better!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 04-06-2013, 16:50   #348
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Jim. I read through Tors ideas and I concur with you completely , its all a bit of a " gedanken" , no proven solutions. Like you said with a range of conditions , a range of points of sail , anything could happen.

Nope just dont believe its workable, anyway something electronic would be more adaptable and usable , and even then difficult to implement

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Old 04-06-2013, 16:53   #349
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Some folks do not know how to see anothers point even if it is totally correct and they are totally wrong. You guys are going to learn that soon enough.

My take once again (from the jacklines thread):

1. use a short tether when you do not believe you can swim to shore.

2. Get a small epirb and attach to your PFD. (and wear the PFD)

3. If out of range for a rescue, do not fall off.
Or maybe you won't learn.............
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Old 04-06-2013, 17:39   #350
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

A few observations:

1) Triplines are primarily an idea for singlehanders. They might also have applications for situations where watches consist of only one person.

2) They clearly do not have applications for people who have immunity from falling overboard.

3) If you cannot contrive some way for the tripline to improve your chances of regaining the boat (by slowing it or stopping it) then you will not find the idea useful

4) If you prefer products (especially electronic ones over procedures and processes, you will not find the idea useful


Relating to point 1: Jay was overboard, and did not make it back on board. We don't know why, but one possibility is that he was unable to, because the boat kept sailing. Hence the discussion of triplines can hardly be dismissed as "off topic".

also relating to point 1: if you're a singlehander, there's not much risk of someone fouling the tripline in the prop while trying to rescue you.

Running the engine is something some sailboats rarely do, once offshore. Oceans are big and fuel tanks are small.

It would also be interesting to know how many people who rule out triplines as a survival aid are happy to tow heavy fishing lines as a recreational diversion.

relating to point 2:

It's fine to consider the deck edge as out of bounds, provided you design the boat so that there are no sheet leads near that edge, no chainplates (whose rigging screws might require attention), no scuppers from which dropped winch handles might need to be retrieved, etc etc....

It's also fine to keep tethers short (and I've posted a few ideas on how to do that workably) but when singlehanded, some jobs require you to be in two places at once, particularly when things go pearshaped. A short tether in such situations is sometimes impracticable.

regarding point 3:

almost any boat which has one of these things: a prevented mainsail eased outboard, or a headsail sheeted in, will heave to when the helm is held to leeward.
It may not work if the sails are tiny in relation to the breeze, but that implies regaining the boat is less problematic.
If you doubt it, please try it.

relating to points 2, 3 and 4: I think there is a danger of confusing ideas you do not find useful with ideas which do not have merit.
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Old 04-06-2013, 17:41   #351
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pirate Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Some folks do not know how to see anothers point even if it is totally correct and they are totally wrong. You guys are going to learn that soon enough.

My take once again (from the jacklines thread):

1. use a short tether when you do not believe you can swim to shore.

2. Get a small epirb and attach to your PFD. (and wear the PFD)

3. If out of range for a rescue, do not fall off.
Forget Tor's speculation... never heard of the guy anyway... whats he done....?? Oh... just found him... another self promoting blogger...
If Motessier, Knox Johnson, Chay Blyth, Peter Blake, Ellen McArthur, Jure Sterk, Chichester or anyone of any note accredited this I'd be behind it all the way... but none have... its one thing to jump off your boat fully aware so you land facing the right way 'to see the hull as it goes past'... and totally another thing to get tossed off totally unexpected... so forgive me if I go with personal experience and the fact better men and women than me have discounted this as a bunch of dog poo..
Wear your PFD's, strap on your tethers... me... I'll just keep bumbling along... but then WTF do I know...
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Old 04-06-2013, 17:47   #352
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Ahem .... Knox Johnston routinely trailed a line on Suhaili... Most of the others sailed boats which are too fast for the idea to work

(Peter Blake though, for one, thought the idea had merit for cruising boats)

I'm not sure that it makes sense to discard ideas on the basis that you haven't seen them endorsed in the published thoughts of famous people whose needs are radically different from yours
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Old 04-06-2013, 17:57   #353
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Some of our keyboard sailors are worried about rope burn on their hands if they have to use the towed line...........got any answers for that?

Hey honey, I'm a little too warm, can you set the A/C to 70 degrees please. Did I tell you that I'm thinking about becoming a real sailboat adventurer. Can you please press my sailing suit for tomorrow.

I'm thinking of going on a three hour cruise, a three hour cruise............
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:03   #354
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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...
Wear your PFD's, strap on your tethers... me... I'll just keep bumbling along... but then WTF do I know...
If you are singlehanding on the open ocean, and fall overboard, PFD's will allow you to feed creatures that are higher on the food chain. After all, who wants to be dinner for the bottom feeders?

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Old 04-06-2013, 18:05   #355
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pirate Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Ahem .... Knox Johnston routinely trailed a line on Suhaili... Most of the others sailed boats which are too fast for the idea to work

(Peter Blake though, for one, thought the idea had merit for cruising boats)

I'm not sure that it makes sense to discard all ideas because you haven't seen them endorsed in the published thoughts of famous people whose needs are radically different from yours
Knox Johnson used to dive of the bow and swim till the stern came level in 'CLEMENT' weather the line for just in case he mistimed it... not as a routine safety MOB tactic.... have a chat with him sometime...
As for published thoughts.... lol
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:06   #356
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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If you are singlehanding on the open ocean, and fall overboard, PFD's will allow you to feed creatures that are higher on the food chain. After all, who wants to be dinner for the bottom feeders?

But a least you won't get a rope burn on your hands...........

Btw, if you are a singlehander do not read the book Outerbridge Reach.
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:10   #357
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If you are singlehanding on the open ocean, and fall overboard, PFD's will allow you to feed creatures that are higher on the food chain. After all, who wants to be dinner for the bottom feeders?

I'm dead.... who cares..... anyway... sooner rather than later you bloat n float... never done a SAR I take it...
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:16   #358
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Ah, Okay, see now.
I suspect we may not ever come to agreement on this. You don't know if the knowledge of a "last chance" will make people take that extra chance.

I can only speak for myself, and my goal, always, is to stay ON the boat. I have mild CP, which affects my legs. My brain understands balance but my legs can't always follow through adequately. But so far I have never fallen on a boat, although I've taken some spectacular falls on sidewalks from unexpected bumps and cracks.

It's nothing to do with age; I was the same way at age 30. I

So I want that backup. And, I suspect, it wouldn't have saved Jay. My suspicion is that he hit his head.

You won't find anyone more careful about getting on and off a boat, and it might drive you nuts because I often use alternative methods, but keeping my center of gravity low and using my arms is crucial.

It could still happen to me, in spite of everything I do to avoid it, but I don't let it keep me from sailing. However, I probably have more motivation than anyone else here to have that one last option.
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:21   #359
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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I'm dead.... who cares..... anyway... sooner rather than later you bloat n float... never done a SAR I take it...
My EMT days were in Arizona. No water to speak of in my area. Car crashes mostly. Heart attacks. Occasionally a partially eaten body in the desert. Beef jerky was the routine, not bloating!
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:21   #360
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Ah, Okay, see now.
I suspect we may not ever come to agreement on this. You don't know if the knowledge of a "last chance" will make people take that extra chance.
EPIRB is an example that proves it.

seatbelts

airbags

It is a human condition tested and confirmed. Sure wish I still had the links.
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