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Old 03-06-2013, 18:05   #301
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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.... Tests are useless unless done in 50kt thundersqualls with boiling water and the boat broaching at 60 degrees heel and 8 knots speed. The rope will be gone before you get your wits back when going overboard. ....
By that rather hyperbolic reasoning, liferafts are equally "useless".

They won't save lives in the most extreme conditions imaginable, so why carry them at all?

A tactic does not have to work in every conceivable situation. No tactic works in every conceivable situation.

Unless you claim that towing a tripline makes falling overboard more likely, we need to confine the discussion to the assumption that, whatever the conditions, and regardless of precautions, the person has fallen overboard, the boat is sailing away, and nobody is in a position to stop it.

I would personally rather have the possibility of grabbing a tripline, than shrug philosophically and cash in my chips at that point in the proceedings.
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Old 03-06-2013, 18:06   #302
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Here is an idea, have a radio receiver that stops the boat if it ever picks up a 121.5Mhz signal, which comes from an activated PLB. You go into the water with your PLB, the boat stops or circles around.
They make such a product already, has a 12v 1amp output when the signal is picked up,
they have it listed at $488.
I saw another one was $5,000, this is for million dollar yachts,
amazon had a 121.5 receiver for $89.

http://www.salcom.co.nz/Product-Details.aspx?ID=48

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Old 03-06-2013, 18:10   #303
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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One further point about the 'foul weather' thing:

I'm not convinced it's that more likely for shorthanded or singlehanded sailors to go overboard in foul weather:

I suspect it's actually more common in fair weather, eg when carrying out ambitious manoeuvres involving large, lightweight sails and poles, which would be next to impossible while clipped on...


I realise this is contrary to what instinct or first impressions might suggest, and I further realise that much of what passes for reasoned discussion on www forums is really a contest along the lines of "my instincts trump your instincts"...

Few of us have the 'advantage' of having fallen overboard multiple times in multiple contexts, after all .... especially single-handed ...

Instinct and first impressions would cause one to want to move closer to shore in a storm, too. The day I got caught in rough seas on the Gulf (no storm), the person with me, as new to sailing as I was at the time (we took the same class) wanted me to move the boat toward shore. Fortunately I had read SAILING FOR DUMMIES.

One can't always stay safe relying on instincts. I think what you said makes a lot of sense.

But I can't imagine me trying to set either a whiskerpole or spinnaker by myself. For starters, I own neither. I'm happy continuing to learn with what I've got.
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Old 03-06-2013, 18:43   #304
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

A well-thought-out trip line discussion at the link:

Tor Pinney's Homepage - A Cruising Sailor's Homeport
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Old 03-06-2013, 19:57   #305
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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A well-thought-out trip line discussion at the link:

Tor Pinney's Homepage - A Cruising Sailor's Homeport

Well now ... How many people are going to call Tor Pinney an idiot? I'll wait and see. He's certainly refined it, but he said everything I did.

that's the difference between speculating and really trying something. Thanks for the link.
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:32   #306
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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At 2'15" ... that is the conditions we're talking about; try to grab the line LOL...

Yep, and even on the next one with the red workboat. Fall off in that crap and you would still have a problem. Only good thing is he's coming in so you might be okay since land is so close provided you had on a PFD and the water wasn't too cold.
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:41   #307
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

It's beginning to look like the best thing is not to fall off. Use your short tether whenever you think you are too far out to swim in.

And lets face it, experience helps. We had a person fall in at the dock the other day. The boat was their first.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:13   #308
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

I only can add what I know from experience.

1. holding onto a trailing line , at 4-5kts, in foulies and an inflated lifejacket is impossible, you are also dragged under by the boats movements

2. Pulling yourself back up the line and getting back on , on a moving boat is impossible


3. A trip line sounds good, I certainly have never understood how I could run one for a wheel steered boat.

4. I utterly ban peeing over teh side on a moving boat.

5. I agree with Dockhead, treat the side of teh boat like a 100' ledge.


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Old 04-06-2013, 08:26   #309
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pirate Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Quote:
Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
They make such a product already, has a 12v 1amp output when the signal is picked up,
they have it listed at $488.
I saw another one was $5,000, this is for million dollar yachts,
amazon had a 121.5 receiver for $89.

Sea Air & Land Communications Ltd. - 12-25 Man Overboard Alarm and Locator Receiver

Had a similar set-up for a Jet Bike concession I worked in E Spain... get to far out and looking like they're gonna do a runner with the bike...? Flick a switch and they're dead in the water... then go out in the ski boat and tow em in...
Different matter under sail tho'..
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:32   #310
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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A wetsuit jacket makes a lot more sense to me than a lifejacket if sailing short handed.

To those who consider that "staying on board" is the single-answer refutation to the notion of a tripline:

do you follow the logical corollary, and forgo/forbid the wearing of PFDs?
I've often thought about the life jacket paradox, and I don't think there's a good answer. You're damned if you wear one and damned if you don't. I think if you're single handed, you're probably right -- a wet suit jacket would be much better. No one's going to come after you, so your only hope is active tactics.

If I fell off a boat, God forbid, while single handed or with crew unable to do anything effective to pick me up, and I were within a mile or two of shore, and the conditions were reasonable, I would swim for shore. Life jacket would just be in the way.

Life jacket would be in the way if I were trying to get back on board, with or without assistance.

But if for whatever reason the right thing to do is tread water and wait for rescue, then a life jacket can save your azz. Or if you are injured.

I tend to wear my life jacket in the dinghy, and tend to make others wear theirs, but I'm not actually sure it's the right thing. Nearly all places I am in the dink is within swimming distance from shore. Besides that, I definitely am able to roll into my dinghy unassisted (tested in Havelet Bay in Guernsey at o-dark hundred while fairly well into my cups) -- unless I had a life jacket on. Or injured.


Concerning trip lines or trailing warps -- obviously everyone will decide for himself what makes him feel safer -- but I would urge anyone considering such a measure to consider the risk of fouling your rudder or prop. This is a pretty high risk, and if the chance of saving yourself with such a device is pretty tiny, consider whether it's worth it. Definitely not on my boat.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:39   #311
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
They make such a product already, has a 12v 1amp output when the signal is picked up,
they have it listed at $488.
I saw another one was $5,000, this is for million dollar yachts,
amazon had a 121.5 receiver for $89.

Sea Air & Land Communications Ltd. - 12-25 Man Overboard Alarm and Locator Receiver

I have a set of these -- two transmitter and a receiver -- acquired with a pile of things I bought from some cruisers who are selling their boat and giving up sea life.

I'm trying to decide whether it's worth finding the oddball batteries for them and bringing them back to life.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:53   #312
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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I only can add what I know from experience.

1. holding onto a trailing line , at 4-5kts, in foulies and an inflated lifejacket is impossible, you are also dragged under by the boats movements

I have nothing against you, Goboating -- I like your posets. But on this topic - be sure you don't do that, then ... a trioline won't do that. See Tor Pinney's file for confirmation if you aren't willing to hang a fifteen foot line off your tiller or wheel, get the boat going, and then pull on the line and hold it. There's no chance of being dragged under by a tripline. it's a tether that will drown you. I would urge people to not use a tether without a knife strapped to their pants. Just having it isn't enough. It could pop out while you're falling, etc. You could drop it while trying to use it. I keep mine on a line with a clip for a belt loop on one end and a key-type round ring at the end. The knife I use is serrated because it's both very sharp and very obvious when it goes dull. The ring goes through the handle of the knife, which has a hole in it for that purpose.

2. Pulling yourself back up the line and getting back on , on a moving boat is impossible

See the comment above and Tor Pinney's article. The boat stops. I know I've only said that about 20 times, but I guess it can't be said too many times.

3. A trip line sounds good, I certainly have never understood how I could run one for a wheel steered boat.

Go see Tor Pinney's article. He has multiple ideas. It was a real eye-opener for me. What's great is that you can test it without going into the water while the boat is moving.

4. I utterly ban peeing over teh side on a moving boat.

I personally believe the real function of life lines is that they make it visually very clear where that "no go" zone is. Virtually all of us have our center of gravity above those so-called "life" lines. i only trust mine when I'm crawling, and that's only because I have netting -- and a good toe rail to attach it to.

Something went wrong with the last part of your post but you were saying that you agree with Dockhead about treating the edge of the boat like a 100' ledge.

I'm sure everyone agrees with Dockhead about that.




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I'm sure you're smart enough to know that not everything I have said is a direct response to you. They were thoughts triggered by what you said, not the same thing.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:55   #313
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pirate Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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I've often thought about the life jacket paradox, and I don't think there's a good answer. You're damned if you wear one and damned if you don't. I think if you're single handed, you're probably right -- a wet suit jacket would be much better. No one's going to come after you, so your only hope is active tactics.

If I fell off a boat, God forbid, while single handed or with crew unable to do anything effective to pick me up, and I were within a mile or two of shore, and the conditions were reasonable, I would swim for shore. Life jacket would just be in the way.

Life jacket would be in the way if I were trying to get back on board, with or without assistance.

But if for whatever reason the right thing to do is tread water and wait for rescue, then a life jacket can save your azz. Or if you are injured.

I tend to wear my life jacket in the dinghy, and tend to make others wear theirs, but I'm not actually sure it's the right thing. Nearly all places I am in the dink is within swimming distance from shore. Besides that, I definitely am able to roll into my dinghy unassisted (tested in Havelet Bay in Guernsey at o-dark hundred while fairly well into my cups) -- unless I had a life jacket on. Or injured.


Concerning trip lines or trailing warps -- obviously everyone will decide for himself what makes him feel safer -- but I would urge anyone considering such a measure to consider the risk of fouling your rudder or prop. This is a pretty high risk, and if the chance of saving yourself with such a device is pretty tiny, consider whether it's worth it. Definitely not on my boat.
I'm kinda lucky.... at age 64... till Sept... I'm still around 80kg for my 6'2".. never been above a 32" waist and can still blast through the water for at least 25-30 metres... a wet suit keeps my whole body floating on the surface well... even with my hands behind my head.
Just occurred to me... one of those inflatable travel pillows for the neck would be a great easy to carry round in a bumbag... stop my head falling sideways dunking my nose in the water if I fall asleep while drifting... Waiting for Goddo...
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:13   #314
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Just a point to add to Boatman's comment that apparently has been removed: The real trouble is that your point of view is that of expert when we all know your stuff is 2nd hand.

When you lecture us til you're "blue in the face", or remind us of what you said "20 times", it sounds pedantic. You're still using classroomspeak, but we're not your students. It's good that you've developed your tripline idea, but many of us have had this discussion over the last 50-60 years, and tried countless schemes. Seriously. Sliced bread is a good thing and we've known about it for quite awhile too.

That one really rough day in the Gulf doesn't qualify you to jump into a survival debate with seasoned sailors, IMO. And your limited experience in warm GOM waters doesn't transfer to colder waters period.
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:16   #315
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

Some people are more gifted physically than others and perhaps could benefit from a trip line.

Most of us have probably known someone who is incredibly gifted physically. We have perhaps seen a water skier who skis using the soles of his bare feet and can hand over hand the ski rope to get aboard the towing boat.

I had a rock climbing friend when I was a lot younger who would practice in wide hallways...as we walked down a hallway he would suddenly place his hands on one wall and pivot up to place his feet on the other and walk along the walls in that position while I walked with him continuing our conversation. He could work his way up to near the ceiling and then back down to near the floor.

I have no such gifts. I use my life jacket and my jackline. YMMV.
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