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Old 02-06-2013, 22:22   #256
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by H34 View Post
Jay was a soft spoken person. He would only want good things in the world. He would want all sailors and Cruisers to believe in the goodness of the sailing and bring us to gather for peace and helping one another as truly I witnessed Jay here in Key West.

This will improve upon search and recovery efforts and the world will thank Jay!

Are you going to have a memorial service for him in Key West?
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Old 02-06-2013, 22:26   #257
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by gunnado View Post
When the conditions call for it i throw a 100ft line of the sugar scoop (fender if im going slow, i have used if for fun, and if you practice and get your technique correct it is easier to pull our self up at speed, i was scared at first going slowly then faster and faster, but now if you have a rope and you can get to it in time, a hand over hand at 7knots is easy, with your feet strait you can steer your body and only half of your body even drags the water, so less resistance than at 3.5 knots.

I have also clibed the anchor chain and it is very hard! and if you do not practice the chance of pulling yourself up the side is very hard. full vertical lift, side force load from water on your body. if i failed a pull up the on my tether the only option is to cut and go for the rope trailing line to give me access to the sugar scoop.

In my 10,000 miles of sailing now i still think the most dangerous risks i have taken is weeing over the side on night shift half mentally exhausted. slow witted with that wave waiting to catch you off balance. I do have a PLB, strobe, teather and knife on my life jacket but only wear it when i feel the conditions call for it. i always assess the risk that are current and i take my measures for that situation, (i understand current conditions may change fast and render all my safety measures useless).
But its the choices to make your own risk analysis for your quality of life, i believe these should be your own choice! I am not a fan of people legislating what i have to do all the time. I like doing my own risk assessment on the conditions. but for crew, i tell them that they should use all safety measure i am aware off and then implement further of their own to protect there life if they want to live, because complacency of your perfect safety measures (mine even) can be another risk not assessed.

Passing doing something you love is my preferred departure from this world.

All my best wishes to the family and friends

EXACTLY. The people insisting that it can't be done (or that climbing the anchor rode is easier) have never done it.

I don't always have my PFD on either, but I do have it in the cockpit when I'm single-handing. I do ALWAYS have a knife strapped on.

I know it can be dangerous to single-hand, but when things go well I get to own it completely. I also enjoy sailing with friends. I like both.

It's also dangerous to be in your own home -- that's where most accidents happen. It's dangerous to cross the street. Life is full of dangers and none of us is going to live forever. The question is, will we live while we're alive?

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Old 02-06-2013, 22:27   #258
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by fryewe
Makes more sense to clip onto a jackline than to tow a warp.

Andrew sez:
"Can anyone spell "false die-cotter-me" ?

I, for one, don't recall signing anything saying I had to pick only one of these options.

I think you must have a pretty low opinion of your fellow CF members if you would assume they would think a tripline was any sort of substitute for tethers and jacklines."


Andrew if you read what I wrote closely you will see that no dichotomy is presented. I simply stated that one alternative for staying onboard makes more sense to me than one alternative for getting back aboard if you fall overboard while underway.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet over my post to the thread for some reason..."I don't recall signing anything"..."you must have a pretty low opinion of your fellow CF members"...

Hell...I'm not trying to tell you or anyone else what to do. And I don't generally have opinions of forum posters one way or the other - high or low - even when they get their hackles up about a perceived slight by another poster.

I hope most who read my post saw it as an attempt to point out that if one is on an underway boat relying on grabbing a towed line to save one's ass when one falls overboard then one better have one's wits about him and be ready to take immediate action and be able to swim pretty well through his own wake and perhaps a heaving sea. Or tow a warp length line that'll give more time because the line is longer and because it's sapping the boat's speed.

You obviously can do whatever you want to try to assure your safety and the safety of those who sail with you. I hope your actions do keep you safe.

And if you feel slighted by what I wrote in my previous post - tough sh#t. Reading comprehension is tough for some. And following Mark Twain's admonition is harder for others.
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Old 02-06-2013, 22:43   #259
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by fryewe
Makes more sense to clip onto a jackline than to tow a warp.

Andrew sez:
"Can anyone spell "false die-cotter-me" ?

I, for one, don't recall signing anything saying I had to pick only one of these options.

I think you must have a pretty low opinion of your fellow CF members if you would assume they would think a tripline was any sort of substitute for tethers and jacklines."


Andrew if you read what I wrote closely you will see that no dichotomy is presented. I simply stated that one alternative for staying onboard makes more sense to me than one alternative for getting back aboard if you fall overboard while underway.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet over my post to the thread for some reason..."I don't recall signing anything"..."you must have a pretty low opinion of your fellow CF members"...

Hell...I'm not trying to tell you or anyone else what to do. And I don't generally have opinions of forum posters one way or the other - high or low - even when they get their hackles up about a perceived slight by another poster.

I hope most who read my post saw it as an attempt to point out that if one is on an underway boat relying on grabbing a towed line to save one's ass when one falls overboard then one better have one's wits about him and be ready to take immediate action and be able to swim pretty well through his own wake and perhaps a heaving sea. Or tow a warp length line that'll give more time because the line is longer and because it's sapping the boat's speed.

You obviously can do whatever you want to try to assure your safety and the safety of those who sail with you. I hope your actions do keep you safe.

And if you feel slighted by what I wrote in my previous post - tough sh#t. Reading comprehension is tough for some. And following Mark Twain's admonition is harder for others.

I agree with most of this, but have to say that on my smaller boat, the effect on speed of the drag line was negligible, perhaps because the line floats?

Yes, you have to have your wits about you, but having fallen out of a boat once -- on my first sail -- I kept my wits about me. Barring injury I think I would not be thrown into a mind-freezing panic, cut the tether if necessary and go for broke with that drag line.

So I've experienced having the boat make me "walk the plank" as it were, and i've teste the drag line on another boat. I really can't say any more. I think there are a lot of fatalists here; I believe in keeping as much control over my fate as possible.
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Old 02-06-2013, 23:08   #260
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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RFID would be an easier set-up.. Program the AP to go to full stb or port lock when the RFID disappears
RFID has a very short range (at least those I've used, I built a rc car track timer system using RFID) and would also need to be "programmed" for multiple people. A 121.5Mhz detector would be a really simple on/off condition and requires nothing special other than the PLB you have already.

Quote:
How does a radio frequency stop a sailing boat?
you have a radio receiver on board that detects the 121.5Mhz signal,
and when found it activates a switch that could control an autopilot or rudder.
Maybe it could launch a life preserver too..whatever you can think of,
you get a switch turned on to turn on whatever.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:04   #261
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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RFID has a very short range (at least those I've used, I built a rc car track timer system using RFID) and would also need to be "programmed" for multiple people. A 121.5Mhz detector would be a really simple on/off condition and requires nothing special other than the PLB you have already.



you have a radio receiver on board that detects the 121.5Mhz signal,
and when found it activates a switch that could control an autopilot or rudder.
Maybe it could launch a life preserver too..whatever you can think of,
you get a switch turned on to turn on whatever.


I don't have the knowledge and skills to set up such a system. FOR ME, a trip line could only stop a SAILING boat, and not one on autopilot. Whether I would have the strength to pull myself up the tripline (even with loops and gloves on) when on autopilot, I just don't know. But the weight of me dragging behind the boat should be enough to encourage the boat to turn.

It would cost what for me would be a lot of money to pay someone to set up a radio frequency to try to turn the autopilot off from the water. You'd have to be darned sure it was going to work before spending your 12 - 18 seconds on that.

You'd have to first grab that tripline, because it WILL go by you if you don't get it, and then use the radio frequency. Tripline is supposed to be a simple solution, not a technology-based one. For me (and I haven't done it), I don't see this one happening for me. Like those who criticize the whole thing, I'm just skeptical that it would all play out as envisioned.

But I'm not going to pooh-pooh it completely. I haven't tried it.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:29   #262
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pirate Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

I hope most who read my post saw it as an attempt to point out that if one is on an underway boat relying on grabbing a towed line to save one's ass when one falls overboard then one better have one's wits about him and be ready to take immediate action and be able to swim pretty well through his own wake and perhaps a heaving sea. Or tow a warp length line that'll give more time because the line is longer and because it's sapping the boat's speed.

You obviously can do whatever you want to try to assure your safety and the safety of those who sail with you. I hope your actions do keep you safe.

And if you feel slighted by what I wrote in my previous post - tough sh#t. Reading comprehension is tough for some. And following Mark Twain's admonition is harder for others.[/QUOTE]

What one can do in a swim suit and what one can do in boots and weather gear">foul weather gear are different matters... try the pull yourself back to boat at 5-7kts in foul weather gear and let us know what happened.
Same with your trial Raku... do it in full foul weather gear... or what you normally wear... get realistic...
have any of you folk ever actually tried swimming with foul weather gear and a PFD on... shoot I've seen folk struggle to move round the deck efficiently... let alone swim when 'Booted and Suited'...
Several years back when I first joined I copped for some mickey taking when I said my foul weather gear is a wetsuit and wind proof.
But I know one thing... I'll cut through that water a damn sight faster than the 'Style Guru's' in the designer foulies..
Theories are always wonderful and work perfect...
adding the realism strips off the rosy tint...
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:31   #263
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I agree. Staying on deck is a must, Jack lines are the first line of defense, after that its a lot of luck!
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:35   #264
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Pondering. I am going to attach floats to a line. Rig the line to my steering and when I think I might fall over board I throw this contraption over the side. I don't always use this because usually I think I can stay aboard. It's only those times that I think I can't stay aboard that I deploy this.
Am I getting this right. I have never seem anyone do this so I really need video footage or a diagram.
Is there something about your boat that makes it difficult to stay aboard. Have you tried a harness? Sorry if your upset and getting blue faced I really don't understand what you are about to do.
I was taught -- and believe more and more that it was right -- to regard the edge of a boat at sea like the edge of the roof of a 50 story building. Don't go off it. Just don't go off. That's Rule 1, Rule 2, and Rule 3. If you do, you're simply dead, unless you are incredibly lucky.

It means don't horse around at the edge of the deck, don't pee over the side unless it's very calm and you're holding on with the greatest of care, and don't leave the cockpit in rough weather. All this is much more important than clipping on or wearing PFD's, which I'm not arguing against -- just trying to put into perspective.

This is all an oversimplification, of course -- sometimes you do have to leave the cockpit in rough weather. If you absolutely can't avoid it, then clip on with a good short tether, and crawl.

I have a strobe and a PLB in my life jacket. But I don't wear my life jacket except in the dinghy, or in exceptionally rough weather (waves over 30 feet) where a knockdown is conceivable, in which case I wear the PFD and clip on in the cockpit, although Plan A, of course, is to simply avoid being out in such weather.

I would never trail a warp as there's no way in hell it could ever save me in 10 degrees C water. The risk is much greater that it will foul a prop and someone will die trying to clear it, than it could ever save me or anyone else. Boats and waters are different -- if you are on a 5 knot boat in 90 degrees F water, it could be different. If I fell off my boat barrelling along at 9 knots as she is wont to do, into 10C water, well -- all I can say is it will be a painless death. It hardly matters whether I'm alone or not, even, day or night, good or bad weather.


I feel really bad about poor Jay. We can say all we want about how good it is to die with your boots on, but he will have wanted to live. How ghastly to drown being dragged by your own tether.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:44   #265
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pirate Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

There's a lot of stuff about guys peeing over the side...
How do you guys do this... just wondering... not the technique... more the location one chose's to perform this death defying feat... and safeguards against 'going over the top'...
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:54   #266
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
There's a lot of stuff about guys peeing over the side...
How do you guys do this... just wondering... not the technique... more the location one chose's to perform this death defying feat... and safeguards against 'going over the top'...
Perhaps excessive thread drift but here goes....
Always on the lee side.....
Short tether.....
One hand on a stay and the other on cabin top handhold...
Missus in charge of keeping the tackle sorted...

Works for me, YMMV...
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:57   #267
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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The beam of my yacht is 3.6m, so say I end up 2m outside the toerail when I enter the water, I have less than 4m to swim in twelve seconds to get the midline of the wake.

Say ten seconds, to allow for surfacing and orientation (this all might be generous, if I fall off near the bow, because your 'timer' only starts when the transom goes by)

That means 0.4m per second. A bit over a foot.

A second is actually quite a long time to swim that far when the alternative is certain death.

Another way of looking at it: you have to be able to manage a few strokes at an average of 3/4 of a knot.
Someone once said, somewhat hyperbolically, that a scared sailor with a bucket is the highest production bilge pump in existence

I'm here to tell you that when you know you're going to die, your swimming ability improves remarkably

I once went overboard in the bay at St. Vaast in Normandy, while the boat was at anchor, and my one crewman was below getting ready for a Channel crossing. I was securing the dinghy while standing on the upended transom platform. Little did I know but one of the hydraulic rams had broken loose (dinghy banging against it during the night -- I forgot to put up the platform, stupid me). The platform swung out and I went over.

This part of the English Channel has tides up to 50 feet and vicious tidal currents. The tide was running at I guess a couple knots, at least, through the bay. My head came above water and I could see my yacht rapidly receding towards the horizon as I, fully clothed and shod, was being swept out to sea.

I understood in an instant, thank God, my predicament, and not taking time to even take off my shoes, I swam like a demon. I swam, and swam, and swam, a swam, like hell. Just as I thought my strength was running out, I finally got within grabbing distance of my transom. After a long grateful pause to catch my breath, I called out to my crewman in a calm, polite voice -- "Oh Simon! Man overboard!". Which unleashed a frenzy of activity.

An hour later, we pulled the anchor up and set off for what turned out to be an utterly fantastic crossing at an average speed of nearly 10 knots, probably my fastest ever, a rollicking beam reach in 20 - 23 knots and in bright sunshine. I didn't even lose my shoes. Lucky me. I learned a valuable lesson that day. By the way, if I'd been in sea boots, rather than deck shoes, I would probably not be around to tell the tale.


So -- I'm not expressing any opinion about whether trailing warps or triplines is silliness, or not. But a bit of swimming in 18 seconds -- of course, that part, at least, is realistic.
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:02   #268
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Perhaps excessive thread drift but here goes....
Always on the lee side.....
Short tether.....
One hand on a stay and the other on cabin top handhold...
Missus in charge of keeping the tackle sorted...

Works for me, YMMV...
Lee side? I prefer being on the high -- windward side.

On hands and knees if it's at all rough.

And unless it is absolutely unavoidable -- not there at all. Demonstrating that roller furling is a safety device on top of every thing else.
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:03   #269
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
There's a lot of stuff about guys peeing over the side...
How do you guys do this... just wondering... not the technique... more the location one chose's to perform this death defying feat... and safeguards against 'going over the top'...
Never underway. Go below and sit down on the toilet. It's the law on my boat.
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:34   #270
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Never underway. Go below and sit down on the toilet. It's the law on my boat.
I do a lot of solo sailing and never really like leaving the helm if I don't have to when underway. Good to have a free recycled bucket nearby:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: A DIFFERENT KIND OF BUCKET LIST
You can even stay clipped in and not risk falling over the side.
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