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Old 31-05-2013, 19:11   #136
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
if he was going from Fort Meyers to Key West, then he was sailing generally in the same direction as the racers, and as I said, some of them were slammed around pretty good. None of them were single-handing, so they didn't have to deal with the mental fatigue that can come from having to spend hours at the helm.

I don't think we had to really mention fatigue, but newer sailors might not be aware of its debilitating effects. There's a lot that goes into being an "experienced" sailors, much to learn and much to do. I call myself an "intermediate" sailor, a place I expect to be at for some time. I probably know just enough to get myself into a peck of trouble some day.

But I wanted to sail all my life, and now I do. I've actively sought the "fast track" to learn as fast as I can. I started at age 62 and I'm 67 now. Something could happen tomorrow that could end the adventure just because of my age. Maybe Jay lived with the same personal knowledge for other reasons, and I understand his going for it with gusto, but a lot can go wrong when you're by yourself.
The race was several days after Jays EPIRB went off. IIRC, FtMyers is only like 90 miles to KW, not 170... I have made that crossing several times entirely in daylight.
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Old 31-05-2013, 19:26   #137
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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The race was several days after Jays EPIRB went off. IIRC, FtMyers is only like 90 miles to KW, not 170... I have made that crossing several times entirely in daylight.

It was my understanding that conditions were still considerablly less then optimal. Otherwise, why did his friend advise him to delay the trip?
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Old 31-05-2013, 19:32   #138
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I made a phone call today after receiving a phone call from a television station requesting information.

Seems the State Department is not being aggressive in the return of Jay Rynberg's body back to Alaska and his GPS.

I have entrusted an Alaskan United States Senatir move forward and aggressively to bring the body back to Alaska.
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Old 31-05-2013, 19:39   #139
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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I made a phone call today after receiving a phone call from a television station requesting information.

Seems the State Department is not being aggressive in the return of Jay Rynberg's body back to Alaska and his GPS.

I have entrusted an Alaskan United States Senatir move forward and aggressively to bring the body back to Alaska.

You have been a good friend to him.
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Old 31-05-2013, 19:47   #140
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Jay's next door neighbor lived in Alaska. That's why I had such great respect and appreciation for his efforts. Truthfully I did not like the derelict boats that were surrounding me -
here in paradise

I'm just very happy that I had a bottle dinner with Jay here in the Florida Ke
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Old 31-05-2013, 20:21   #141
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

With all of the correct devices,Epirbs, Ais etc etc, you can be found with some ease in a fairly short period.

The Australian Search systems have even rescued people 2000nm from our coast line in the southern ocean, Tony Bullimore was in an upturned Yacht for a few days but us Aussies saved him (twice actually) this rescue was carried out by our navy (too far for rescue planes to even fly).New Zealand have also had similar rescues.

This guy was inside his upturned boat until rescuers arrived on the scene.

I don't Remember the exact details but it was reported in our news at the time and it cost us many Thousands of dollars.

So the long and short is IF you carry the right equipment in areas around the world that have rescue systems you will be found and mostly alive.
(we have many lose of life incidents as well in Australia but none to my knowledge where the use of epirbs AIs etc have been able to be activated and used as intended.)

Problem is many areas (nations)around our world Don't have rescue resources or the money to fuel boats if they do, so they don't even bother to look.Many of these nations exist in the Pacific as well. ( so as a Cruiser you need to be aware of this)

Jays epirb was promptly found, unfortunately not tethered with him, in this instance though the systems worked it was human error that failed it,sad but true.

Deaths in boating incidents are probably similar to vehicles in that a vast majority occur close to home, perhaps some complacency,etc creeps in when your in familiar areas as well?

i know of many who don't tether or carry personal epirbs (most have these devices Just don't use them) it is probably a case of it won't happen to me, but these individuals are only alive for as long as the next mistake they make

So all the Freedom,Liberty and the other BS isn't worth much to you dead, find a few dollars and buy as much safety equipment as you think is required.
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Old 31-05-2013, 21:03   #142
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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With all of the correct devices,Epirbs, Ais etc etc, you can be found with some ease in a fairly short period.

So all the Freedom,Liberty and the other BS isn't worth much to you dead, find a few dollars and buy as much safety equipment as you think is required.
As for an additional SAR asset remains unknown in the forum. I have been in direct phone contact with the technology company for the USN blimp surveillance. Before I make another word... this technology would be in full view of what is being seen - we have intent to produce a working business model that will help to protect Planet Ocean and SAR.

To date, WE the Mariners do not have such an asset and neither does the USCG. It is our full intent to produce a sound business model - help to bring forth superior SAR optics and for the USCG to have superior search SAR at night. In the first day the search was suspended after sunset - at sunrise the next day search till sunset - as the USCG did with Jay.

If you want this asset... then it will take a few more phone calls.
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Old 31-05-2013, 23:39   #143
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Originally Posted by aclmck View Post
With all of the correct devices,Epirbs, Ais etc etc, you can be found with some ease in a fairly short period.

The Australian Search systems have even rescued people 2000nm from our coast line in the southern ocean, Tony Bullimore was in an upturned Yacht for a few days but us Aussies saved him (twice actually) this rescue was carried out by our navy (too far for rescue planes to even fly).New Zealand have also had similar rescues.

This guy was inside his upturned boat until rescuers arrived on the scene.

I don't Remember the exact details but it was reported in our news at the time and it cost us many Thousands of dollars.

So the long and short is IF you carry the right equipment in areas around the world that have rescue systems you will be found and mostly alive.
(we have many lose of life incidents as well in Australia but none to my knowledge where the use of epirbs AIs etc have been able to be activated and used as intended.)

Problem is many areas (nations)around our world Don't have rescue resources or the money to fuel boats if they do, so they don't even bother to look.Many of these nations exist in the Pacific as well. ( so as a Cruiser you need to be aware of this)

Jays epirb was promptly found, unfortunately not tethered with him, in this instance though the systems worked it was human error that failed it,sad but true.

Deaths in boating incidents are probably similar to vehicles in that a vast majority occur close to home, perhaps some complacency,etc creeps in when your in familiar areas as well?

i know of many who don't tether or carry personal epirbs (most have these devices Just don't use them) it is probably a case of it won't happen to me, but these individuals are only alive for as long as the next mistake they make

So all the Freedom,Liberty and the other BS isn't worth much to you dead, find a few dollars and buy as much safety equipment as you think is required.
aclmck,

+1

You might remember the 30 yr NZ trochus fisherman who fell off his dingy last week in the Swains reefs off Central Queensland that was lost. There have been quite a few fishermen/divers lost similarly over the years with expensive and difficult rescue attempts that these days could in many cases have been resolved successfully and quickly with Personal locator beacons which are nowdays reasonably priced.

Then again freedom/liberty is our catch cry. I guess diving/boating in my youth 30/40 years ago I was as gun/ho as anyone. My early scuba diving (self taught) was without BCD's (bouyancy control devices) as the early devices were just starting to become available. The BCD's today are mandatory with training, highly developed but unfortunately have become fashion items with virtually none available in safety orange/yellow for visability meaning one needs to carry a safety sausage for visability. But as time goes on and you get into a position of responsibility managing a vessel and divers and as equipment improves we are foolish not to mitigate and manage the risks as best we can. Risk management.

As this above incident was a workplace situation, no doubt Workplace, Health and Safety will be investigating this case and if precidence is followed there will be a fine above $50,000 (most likely considerably more in the case of a death) in that case for the business owner. I imagine in the future if he is still in business he will be supplying PLB's. The Coral Sea reefs are not a place to be searching for someone missing in the water.
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:52   #144
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

The new EPIRB 406 MHz are a great tool, but they still take time to be located... From the USCG web site:

"EPIRBs detected by COSPAS-SARSAT (e.g. TIROS N) satellites provide rescue authorities location of distress, but location and sometimes alerting may be delayed as much as an hour or two."

So if the boat was sailing at 5 knots, the vessel could have been as much as 10 nm miles away from the EPIRB before the signal was detected...

Then getting Search & Rescue assets on scene could have taken another hour or more...

This would have placed the vessel 15 nm away from the EPIRB when S&R units arrived on scene, with the vessel still moving 5 nm away from the scene every hour.

So at arrival, the S&R assets would already have several hundred miles of ocean to search and more with each passing hour.

I can see why they missed it...

I have found my AIS Class B transmits about 8-12 miles in optimal conditions from the top of my 63 foot mast, but degrades rapidly in heavy seas, due to the swing of the antenna at the top of the mast. So with the boat sailing away from the S&R search area, it would be unlikely S&R would have seen an AIS Class B broadcast. Also if the vessel was in heavy seas and/or sailing more than 10 miles off shore, the Web based AIS position sites, probably would not have seen it either.

On the other hand, AIS might have helped, if other vessels saw the Catamaran on AIS. They might have recognized it by name since the USCG was broadcasting an alert on Marine VHF 16 for several days. But again there was severe winds and so there were a lot less vessels out there than on a sunny calm day.

In any event, in my humble opinion the USCG does a great job and I am glad they are there!
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:58   #145
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

I think the intention of any distress call is you are no longer moving in any particular direction when you call for rescue!

Unless maybe you are pointed for the nearest hospital and hoping to meet up with a medivac along the route.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:17   #146
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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I think the intention of any distress call is you are no longer moving in any particular direction when you call for rescue!
Thats the incorrect assumption made in this case. They thought the boat would be colocated with the EPIRB, not sailing against the current at 8 knots.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:21   #147
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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The new EPIRB 406 MHz are a great tool, but they still take time to be located... From the USCG web site:

"EPIRBs detected by COSPAS-SARSAT (e.g. TIROS N) satellites provide rescue authorities location of distress, but location and sometimes alerting may be delayed as much as an hour or two."

So if the boat was sailing at 5 knots, the vessel could have been as much as 10 nm miles away from the EPIRB before the signal was detected...

Then getting Search & Rescue assets on scene could have taken another hour or more...

This would have placed the vessel 15 nm away from the EPIRB when S&R units arrived on scene, with the vessel still moving 5 nm away from the scene every hour.

So at arrival, the S&R assets would already have several hundred miles of ocean to search and more with each passing hour.

I can see why they missed it...

I have found my AIS Class B transmits about 8-12 miles in optimal conditions from the top of my 63 foot mast, but degrades rapidly in heavy seas, due to the swing of the antenna at the top of the mast. So with the boat sailing away from the S&R search area, it would be unlikely S&R would have seen an AIS Class B broadcast. Also if the vessel was in heavy seas and/or sailing more than 10 miles off shore, the Web based AIS position sites, probably would not have seen it either.

On the other hand, AIS might have helped, if other vessels saw the Catamaran on AIS. They might have recognized it by name since the USCG was broadcasting an alert on Marine VHF 16 for several days. But again there was severe winds and so there were a lot less vessels out there than on a sunny calm day.

In any event, in my humble opinion the USCG does a great job and I am glad they are there!
Good explanation of how the boat was missed and what the limitations of AIS and the EPIRB are. I agree the Coast Guard does indeed do a good job. Tethering is a good idea if it keeps you in the boat. But, what should be sobering for sailors is that even in near coastal conditions rescue may not be a sure thing. Staying safe even on short hops along the coast requires one to not let their guard down.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:38   #148
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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I think the intention of any distress call is you are no longer moving in any particular direction when you call for rescue!

Unless maybe you are pointed for the nearest hospital and hoping to meet up with a medivac along the route.
Dont agree about not moving where i live the currents and tides move you fairly quickly, our rescue people know that and base a search based on that information, if the epirb on jays boat had have been tethered in then that would have led them straight to him. Epirbs once activated require a search to be coordinated then commenced this would i guess take an hour or two then they have to get to you so in a few hours around here you could drift many miles
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:00   #149
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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Dont agree about not moving where i live the currents and tides move you fairly quickly, our rescue people know that and base a search based on that information, if the epirb on jays boat had have been tethered in then that would have led them straight to him. Epirbs once activated require a search to be coordinated then commenced this would i guess take an hour or two then they have to get to you so in a few hours around here you could drift many miles
Every place is different as far as current and rescuers base their searches on the local currents.

Here in Florida, unless your in the Gulf Stream, you are not going to drift very fast, but sailing away from the EPIRB at speed will screw up the search no matter where you are.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:12   #150
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Re: Missing Boat found in Cuba: Lessons Learned

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It was my understanding that conditions were still considerablly less then optimal. Otherwise, why did his friend advise him to delay the trip?
He was advised to delay because he had already been 48+ hours without decent sleep, and it is much more predictable to sail behind a front than before it. He survived the front's passing, as the photos of the boat on the shore of Cuba showed the sails rigged for a beam reach (the trades blow out of the east and he was heading more or less south). It would be reasonable to assume he made it through the front without issue, and re-rigged for the trades for the rest of the run south. Additionally there are items on deck that would have blown away had there been any significant wind.

Weather was not a factor in this case.
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