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Old 11-10-2016, 01:09   #61
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Re: Masthead Tricolor or Inhull/Pulpits Running Lights

Running a tricolor, and a masthead (steaming light) together looks like a fishing boat or a trawler under colregs.

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Old 11-10-2016, 02:10   #62
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Re: Masthead Tricolor or Inhull/Pulpits Running Lights

On my 8.8m yacht I have a tricolour for sailing .

For motoring I have a bicolour mounted on the front of the mast at the spreader level and a white all round masthead light.

I believe this arrangement complies with the Col Regs.

The only issue I can see with this arrangement is if I was to motor with the headsail up then the bicolour may be obscured by the headsail. Also motoring with the headsail roller furled the bicolour may be very slightly obscured from dead ahead by the bulk of the rolled up headsail.
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Old 11-10-2016, 03:37   #63
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Re: masthead tricolor or inhull/pulpits running lights

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Originally Posted by pcmm View Post
I'd like to know where that is in the col regs!! otherwise that's incorrect.
Well, open the Colregs and have a look. It's right there in black and white.

Tricolor is ok ONLY for vessel actually under sail and ONLY if the vessel is under 20 meters.

When the Colregs talk about a "sailing vessel", that means actually under sail. If you are using your motor, you are a "power driven vessel" and must show lights for a power driven vessel.

You must not use a tricolor together with a steaming light, which as others have said is confusing.
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Old 11-10-2016, 04:18   #64
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Re: Masthead Tricolor or Inhull/Pulpits Running Lights

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Originally Posted by Neil C View Post
.. .
For motoring I have a bicolour mounted on the front of the mast at the spreader level and a white all round masthead light.

I believe this arrangement complies with the Col Regs.

The only issue I can see with this arrangement is if I was to motor with the headsail up then the bicolour may be obscured by the headsail. Also motoring with the headsail roller furled the bicolour may be very slightly obscured from dead ahead by the bulk of the rolled up headsail.
That's ok as long as you have the required vertical separation between combined sidelights and all around light.

Headsails also obscure steaming lights of many vessels. Common problem. The normal arrangement of sidelights, masthead, and stern light is better from that point of view.
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Old 11-10-2016, 05:19   #65
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Re: masthead tricolor or inhull/pulpits running lights

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Used to rely on the masthead tricolor before LED's came out. The old bright incandescent deck lights ate up a lot of juice with thee bulbs to feed whole the mast head light only had one bulb. Now with LED's, the deck lights eat so little electrons I run them exclusively.

The mast head lights probably have greater range because of their height but don't think they are technically legal to run while motoring because the steaming light is under them not above. Mast head tricolor ight is not required, in any case.
That's why the tricolor was developed. One bulb instead of three. If you're using LED's it's pretty much irrelevant. If you're motoring you must have a masthead light at least one meter above the sidelights which rules out the tricolor. (Vessels up to 20 meters in length. It's two meters if you're bigger than that). The tricolor may only be used with the engine OFF. So, if you have an engine you must have the deck level sidelights and sternlight. The tricolor is always optional.
The side lights mounted in the hull are often aimed incorrectly. It's a stock fitting and it's manufacturor had no idea what the angle of your bow is. So the single or combined lamps mounted on the rail are better in that respect, but are more prone to damage. Being a little higher off the water helps too.
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Old 11-10-2016, 05:53   #66
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Re: masthead tricolor or inhull/pulpits running lights

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent

Definitions: Rule 21
a) Masthead: light White light with unbroken visibility for 225* centered dead ahead.
b) Sidelights: Red & green lights placed at the side of the vessel with unbroken visibility from dead ahead to 112.5* aft on each side
c) Sternlight: White light with unbroken visibility for 135* centered dead aft.
e) All around light: Light with unbroken visibility for 360*.

lights required for Sailing:
1] Rule 25.b: Tricolor at or near mast head.
2] Rule 25.a: Sidelights (or Bi-color rule 21.b for vessels under 12m) plus stern light
3] Rule 25.c: Sidelights, stern light plus red over green mast lights
4] Rule 25.d: Sailboats under 7m can have truly minimal lights [my interpretation is stupid lighting, as in you would be stupid to intentionally go with this lighting].

Lights required for Motoring

1] Rule 23.a.i, .iii, .iv: Masthead, sidelights, sternlight for vessels under 50m
2] Rule 23.d: side lights and all around white light for vessels under 12m

For sailboats the unobstructed view requirement limits the placement of side lights to locations above or below foresails.


http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRu...18_Annex_1.pdf

Height of lights

Annex 1 Section 2.c: Vessels 12-20m the masthead light shall be at least 2.5m above the gunnel.

A1.S2.d: Vessels <12m the masthead light may be below 2.m but shall be at least 1m above the side lights.

A1.s2.g: The sidelights of a power-driven vessel shall be placed at a height above the hull not greater than three quarters of that of the forward masthead light. They shall not be so low as to be interfered with by deck lights.

A1.s2.h: The sidelights, if in a combined lantern and carried on a power-driven vessel of less than 20 meters in length, shall be placed not less than 1 meter below the masthead light.

If you want to take a risk that some coasty, US or otherwise, won't ding you for the 3/4 height limit on sidelights then you could put a masthead (steaming) light on a post 1.01m above the tri-color at the masthead. That's kind of impractical.

Any arrangement that puts the while steaming/masthead light below a colored sidelight is a violation of the rules.

Putting the steaming/masthead light below the top of the jib puts you in violation if you motorsail with the jib up because it will be obscured by the jib for part of its required arc.
That still doesn't say that you use a tricolour for sailing and deck level for motoring ( as in you need both) it gives you options. if you note rule 25 gives you options for configurations. 90% of boaters would pick a setup that satisfies all the requirements. A tricolour only satisfies the sailing requirement as it cannot be used when motoring as you would need the steaming light above it which no tricolour has. Therefore while a tricolour is nice to have, its not necessary and deck level port starboard a stern light and a steaming light on the mast is the typical solution.
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Old 11-10-2016, 06:51   #67
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Re: masthead tricolor or inhull/pulpits running lights

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Originally Posted by pcmm View Post
That still doesn't say that you use a tricolour for sailing and deck level for motoring ( as in you need both) it gives you options. if you note rule 25 gives you options for configurations. 90% of boaters would pick a setup that satisfies all the requirements. A tricolour only satisfies the sailing requirement as it cannot be used when motoring as you would need the steaming light above it which no tricolour has. Therefore while a tricolour is nice to have, its not necessary and deck level port starboard a stern light and a steaming light on the mast is the typical solution.
Exactly. Around here (Lake Michigan) you hardly ever see a tricolor and I've never seen a boat with the red over green identity lights. You do however see lots of boats lit wrong, usually with sidelights and sternlight, masthead light, anchor light, and sometimes a strobe all on while apparently sailing. Yea, I see you, but I dont know what you're doing.
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Old 11-10-2016, 07:20   #68
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Re: masthead tricolor or inhull/pulpits running lights

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Also non compliant because the white sector of the masthead tricolour does not meet the requirements of a "stern light".
What did I miss, how would it not meet the requirements of a stern light? Right color, right arc. Too high?
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:24   #69
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Re: masthead tricolor or inhull/pulpits running lights

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Originally Posted by pcmm View Post
That still doesn't say that you use a tricolour for sailing and deck level for motoring ( as in you need both) it gives you options. if you note rule 25 gives you options for configurations. 90% of boaters would pick a setup that satisfies all the requirements. A tricolour only satisfies the sailing requirement as it cannot be used when motoring as you would need the steaming light above it which no tricolour has. Therefore while a tricolour is nice to have, its not necessary and deck level port starboard a stern light and a steaming light on the mast is the typical solution.
The tricolor for sailing is optional. Note that it says the lights on a sailing vessel in "a" (deck nav lights) may be combined and carried at mast top. Meaning the lights are moved, not added to. A sailing vessel is only a sailing vessel if there is no engine or it is not in use. A sailboat with no engine, or I suppose one that never motors at night, this can be the only nav light you need on the vessel, which in this special case make it required instead of optional.

Here's the full text of b with some bolded text by me -

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a) may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen


To reinforce that you don't use the tricolor with deck nav lights, look at the language in "c". The red over green is exhibited in addition to lights in "a" (deck nav lights) and cannot be used with a tricolor.

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a), exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by Rule 25(b).


Rule 3 for those arguing what a sailboat is -
(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
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Old 11-10-2016, 13:15   #70
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Re: masthead tricolor or inhull/pulpits running lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
.......
When the Colregs talk about a "sailing vessel", that means actually under sail. If you are using your motor, you are a "power driven vessel" and must show lights for a power driven vessel.
.......
So, you drop all your sails and are lying under bare poles with the engine off, what are you then? Well not you exactly... your boat but you know what I mean...

Enquiring minds want to know.....

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Old 11-10-2016, 13:29   #71
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Re: masthead tricolor or inhull/pulpits running lights

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So, you drop all your sails and are lying under bare poles with the engine off, what are you then? Well not you exactly... your boat but you know what I mean...

Enquiring minds want to know.....

Ping of the Rio Pongo
Dear Ping de Pong:

The definition of a sailing vessel under the COLREGS is pretty clear:

"(c). The term 'sailing vessel' means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being
used."

I'm not sure why you think this is such a puzzle.
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Old 11-10-2016, 13:41   #72
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Re: Masthead Tricolor or Inhull/Pulpits Running Lights

We normally show white overall on a passage that I switch manually to tri when in poor visibility or when we notice a boat nearby or nearing by.

The low lights I and only use when steaming, in combo with the steaming light and the aft lantern.

We have only 2ft freeboard so I assume our bow lights are not normally visible.

When in any doubt, I will also cast a powerful beam reflector on our sails to guide the nut on the other boat.

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Old 11-10-2016, 13:46   #73
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Re: masthead tricolor or inhull/pulpits running lights

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Dear Ping de Pong:

The definition of a sailing vessel under the COLREGS is pretty clear:

"(c). The term 'sailing vessel' means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being
used."

I'm not sure why you think this is such a puzzle.
Try it again.... ' a sailing vessel means any vessel under sail' ( I'll try a red highlight this time... that may help you) ....

If your sails are furled you are not 'under sail' therefore it follows from the above that you are not a sailing vessel but , lets say, you have no machinery fitted being a purist and all... so what are you?

I don't consider it a puzzle at all, I am simply asking you to explain it as you appear to have the answer to most things everything.

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Old 11-10-2016, 14:06   #74
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Re: Masthead Tricolor or Inhull/Pulpits Running Lights

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Originally Posted by SailingFan View Post
There seems to be one white light on the mast, all the way at the top.
The bicolors are about at the spreaders, a foot higher maybe than the spreaders themselves. I don't know if you can see the mount for them in my avatar photo?? I wondered about jib/genoa clearance as well, and am unsure what to do about that situation, unless it is to put a tricolor at the mast and remove the bicolors, but I have no idea why someone would go to the effort of installing them there if they are not legal to use. I am confused on this part as well.

There are two low mounted lights (red one side, green the other) that I am calling "steaming lights," within the freeboard, at the bow, perhaps a foot or less below the gunwhale and a few inches aft of the stem vee. They should be easily visible in my avatar.

If I read things correctly here I have to acquire/build a sternlight and mount it on some structure aft or on the stern rail such that it does not shine forward but only is visible over the 200+ degree field aft centered upon the centerline of the vessel and aiming directly aft over the vessel's wake? If this is the case, the stern light I was speaking of that is mounted in the stern itself does not count, and is only useful for illumination for personal use and perhaps night illumination at a dock, etc.??
If your pushpit rail goes all the way across your stern, then your white stern light could actually be on the centerline of the boat.

If the light is mounted as close to the centerline as possible, it would not be perfect, but I have seen many boats set up that way. It makes it a little harder to see at night from one side. I have never seen one on a stalk all by itself and in the way.

It could put you at a deficit if it somehow led to a collision, but that seems highly unlike to me.

Ann
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Old 11-10-2016, 14:39   #75
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Masthead Tricolor or Inhull/Pulpits Running Lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
So, you drop all your sails and are lying under bare poles with the engine off, what are you then? Well not you exactly... your boat but you know what I mean...



Enquiring minds want to know.....



Ping of the Rio Pongo

I would think that depends on what you are doing with the helm.

If it is left to its own devices or is lashed in place then there is an arguement that you are Not Under Command and should display the lights appropriate for that condition.

If the conditions are such that you could take the helm and affect your course then I see an equally strong argument that you are not NUC and therefore fall under some other rule. As a sailboat with a comparatively large rudder and masts and rigging that can act as sails you probably have the ability to choose and follow a course within a 90* to 150* arc downwind. Since you don't have machinery propelling you and your vessel is being propelled by the wind then any investigating authority is likely to determine that you were a sailing vessel and should have displayed lights and shapes as such.

Arguments in support of your belief that you were NUC include:
A. That there was too much wind to actively navigate the boat, even down wind.
B. Alternatively you could argue that there was too little room to leeward to run off and too much wind to go to weather.

There is no option to not be one of the vessel categories listed in the COLREGS or to not use one of the approved lighting and dayshape arrangements. In the event of a legal dispute it will be an outside party that decides if you were correctly lit.

Finally if you do decide that you are NUC, there is no exception for maintaining a watch, you still need to look outside for other vessels and take action to avoid collision.


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