Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-05-2010, 15:23   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pompano Beach, FL
Boat: Pearson, P33, 33', Stampede
Posts: 34
Send a message via Skype™ to cfoxcvg
Main Sail Handling / Trim Help - Boom Recommendations

I need some opinions. I am an experienced boater but needles to say I am no expert when it comes to sail handling and trim. After 6 years of DYI/TLC work and enjoying the boat I am to the point where I want to tweak the boat and make it right.
I am raising the boom to make space for a bimini top, at the moment the boom with crack you in the head while at the helm (not so much fun). I would like to make sure the main is cut correctly once I have the final measurements.
Here is the problem.
I have never gotten the main to shape right, please see the folds in the photo. Also currently the boom rests at about 95 deg to the mast.
I did change to mid boom sheeting but this was a problem before although it may of gotten worse. A school used to own the boat and they used this one for basic training, I thought they may of scalped the sail off another and just made it work.
#1 My question is, should the boom be 90 deg to the mast? I see several configurations in my area but 90 or less would make life easier for the bimini.
#2 If the sail was cut correctly how would you shape it to remove these folds? I have tried everything I can think of. I know the sail is losing a lot of performance.
Ill take any ideas or criticisms you can throw my way. Thanks in advance.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC00004.jpg
Views:	311
Size:	343.7 KB
ID:	16229  
__________________

__________________
cfoxcvg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 16:05   #2
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,311
I'm no expert, but I don't think this sail is fitted correct. I think the foot is too long. I would send this picture along with measurements to a sail maker.

PS - I broke a rule of mine here, when the real experts show up don't blood me too much
__________________

__________________
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 16:25   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pompano Beach, FL
Boat: Pearson, P33, 33', Stampede
Posts: 34
Send a message via Skype™ to cfoxcvg
Here is a photo to show the foot. You can also see the angle of the boom. This is with 10-15 mph wind and the boom is well over the Port side, when pulled to center line it hangs very low.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMAG0656.jpg
Views:	386
Size:	406.9 KB
ID:	16233  
__________________
cfoxcvg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 16:33   #4
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
The wrinkles close to the mast and boom indicate too little tension. If you can't get any more tension then the sail is too big. The diagonal wrinkles are interesting. Is your topping lift completely loose? I think the weight of the leech and battens could be sagging into the body of the sail, particularly in light wind with the end of the boom held up. The 95 degrees could be that the mast end of the boom isn't low enough (sail is too big for the boat) or racers like extra sail area and it is cut that way. 505 and I-14 dinghies are famous for drooping booms.

Also could have been built poorly. Big heavy leech patches and reinforcements with battens too short will cause the leech to sag into body.

Added content after seeing 2nd pic. Sail is too big. Is there a cunningham to take out wrinkles at the mast? The clew seems to extend past the track and rises up, a line tied around the boom will help a little, but the diagonal wrinkles I now believe are due to the sail being blown out.


Personally dealing with maximized sail area on my boat. It has a sliding gooseneck that if the sail were cut such that the boom started at the top of the track with low tension, the boom would pass over your head while standing in the cockpit. Current sail the luff length is cut that the boom is permanently tied off at the bottom of the track and luff tension is applied by cunningham. The 17 foot heavy boom is squarely at take your head off height. With beginners on the boat I have tied the first reef point to the gooseneck and hoisted the sail and boom up to the top of the track. I'm only a few inches short of a full hoist in this mode, basically this sail reefed is very close to the full size of the originally designed main for the boat. They also maximised roach such that the leech overlaps the backstay, a pain for tacking. For now useful in the light airs of Puget Sound.


John
__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 16:41   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Southern Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Norseman 430, Jabberwock
Posts: 691
It looks to me that the luff of the sail is too long.

If the head of the sail was "shortened" (assuming the sail is worth spending some money on) the luff could be tensioned to remove those wrinkles, and that would raise the end of the boom as well
__________________
ggray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 16:48   #6
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,744
Looks like the tack of the sail is loose and luff lacks all tension. The end of the boom falls down to take up the slack in the leech of the sail, but the gooseneck is fixed so the luff flops.

The boom tilts because the gooseneck can't fall like the boom-end does. This is not good.

The halyard needs to go up or the gooseneck needs to go down. If neither of these is possible, then the sail needs to be recut to take a strip out of the foot. Or it needs replacing.

I think you may be exactly right -- that sail was perhaps not made for the boat.

Bet it doesn't draw at all like that -- I would do something about it as a matter of priority, if I were you.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 16:50   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pompano Beach, FL
Boat: Pearson, P33, 33', Stampede
Posts: 34
Send a message via Skype™ to cfoxcvg
John
Thanks for the info. Yes the topping lift is lose, to the point where it flops around in this photo. The halyard is tight with a lot of tension. Almost to the point where I thought it was to much. There is still at least 6 inches to the mast head so I am almost certain that is not the whole problem. I agree that the battens seem heavy and it does look like they are pushing the sail down but even in a stiff 20+ mph wind the folds are consistent.

GGray
The sail is in great shape and not stiff or worn so I think it is worth the maintenance. You did make me think of an option. I was going to raise the boom at the mast to make room for the bimini top but if I am already going to have my sail cut could I just have them modify the foot so the boom is direction up sill I get the height I need? In doing so it would also tighten the leech correct?
What are your thought on this approach.
__________________
cfoxcvg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 17:12   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Boat: Cape Dory 33, 17' Boston Whaler
Posts: 164
I agree that the sail is not cut correctly for the boat. The sail appears to be too big. There is also the possibility that your sail is fairly bagged out. The 'how old is it' question is rather subjective, so 'how much use has it had' is more appropriate. Has the sail been used past it's serviceable life?

When is the boom 95 degrees to the mast, when the sail is up or when the boom is just hanging from the topping lift? Keep in mind that the boom angle on most boats is controlled by a vang. The vang controls (among other things) the leech tension, so boom angles are a little fluid when it comes to sail trim. Also, while your diagonal wrinkles appear to come from the oversized sail, on a properly cut sail it is not uncommon to see some diagonal wrinkles like yours (to a much lesser degree though) on the bottom half or third of the sail. These are called 'overbend' wrinkles and can actually indicate proper trim.

I agree that a cunningham will help (but it won't solve the problem)- I find the vang and cunningham to be the most underused and under-appreciated trim lines.
__________________
Prerequisite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 17:12   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Australia, Central Coast.
Boat: Boden 36 Triple chine long keel steel, named Nekeyah
Posts: 776
Have you checked the straightness of your mast? Regards, Richard.
__________________
boden36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 17:22   #10
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
There seems to be more extra luff there than would be explained by the amount of stretching that happens in an old sail. This seems to be a clear case of the heartbreaking situation known as mast shrinkage.

Seriously, the best solution, if the sail is in good shape, would be a recut. A sail loft that specializes in repairs should be able to help that sail out considerably for far less than a new sail would cost.

The good news is that with those two blonds sitting where they are for the second photo, nobody gonna be looking at that nasty sail trim.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 17:31   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pompano Beach, FL
Boat: Pearson, P33, 33', Stampede
Posts: 34
Send a message via Skype™ to cfoxcvg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prerequisite View Post
The 'how old is it' question is rather subjective, so 'how much use has it had' is more appropriate. Has the sail been used past it's serviceable life?

When is the boom 95 degrees to the mast, when the sail is up or when the boom is just hanging from the topping lift? Keep in mind that the boom angle on most boats is controlled by a vang
I do not know the age but 6 years ago when I bought the boat I had Nance & Underwood in Ft Lauderdale make a minor repair. At that time they said the sails were fine and in good shape. To this day the appear and feel the same.

The 95 deg is when the main is up with the topping lift lose.

Dockhead:
The luff is as tight as I can get it, I literally hung my 220 lbs on it before tying off. I did verify that the track was free.

I am seeing a trend that I most likely need to have the sail cut.
Guess I need to look into how I should have it cut. Off the top or foot? Also weather I have it at a 90 degree and raise the gooseneck or have the foot cut at a lesser degree to get the boom height I need.
__________________
cfoxcvg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 17:34   #12
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
a good sailmaker will come to your boat and determine the cut while it's on the rig.

my guess is that your sail will get a footectomy.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 17:38   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pompano Beach, FL
Boat: Pearson, P33, 33', Stampede
Posts: 34
Send a message via Skype™ to cfoxcvg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
The good news is that with those two blonds sitting where they are for the second photo, nobody gonna be looking at that nasty sail trim.
LOL!
Funny thing about this is not 5 min before this photo as 44' MTI cat (speed boat) went buy at about 80 mph with 5 men on it. Ill take my chances

Just for recognition, Thats my Pop's in the cockpit, My lovely lady in the middle and her mother in the front. Hi Guys!
__________________
cfoxcvg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 18:06   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Southern Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Norseman 430, Jabberwock
Posts: 691
This is strange; you say the halyard is tight and there is still 6 inches of hoist left?

Might there be something preventing the top slide from going all the way up? And I'm sure you tensioned the halyard with the mainsheet loose.

Looks to me like you could just raise the aft end of the boom (by cutting off some of the head, or the foot), but you should first make sure the sail can go all of the way up.
__________________
ggray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2010, 18:14   #15
Registered User
 
Dave the Canuck's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgian Bay, Canada
Boat: Catalina 34 - "Points North"
Posts: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggray View Post
you should first make sure the sail can go all of the way up.
I agree absolutely. I'm guessing that something is preventing you from getting that last six inches up.

Actually, this only became a joke after I looked at it. I'm guessing something in the track. I'd definitely go up the chair and have a look or pay someone to do it for you. Much cheaper than a sail re-cut.
__________________

__________________
Dave
Dave the Canuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
furling main sail mast into normal main usage? andreavanduyn General Sailing Forum 9 20-02-2009 09:52
furling main sail mast into normal main usage? andreavanduyn General Sailing Forum 1 10-02-2009 09:06
Main Sail Handling Systems Stevens 47 Product or Service Reviews & Evaluations 20 21-06-2008 17:49
Sail Trim Help GordMay The Library 0 22-02-2005 04:22



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:23.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.