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Old 19-05-2010, 08:33   #31
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Go up the mast and check the track is clear, and that the 'shivs' are free-running. Make sure you have a pre-stretched halyard. Let the tension out of the outhaul, head to windward and slacken the mainsheet right off. Then raise the main. Send us a photo of that.
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Old 19-05-2010, 08:35   #32
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Have you tried a Cunningham?
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Old 19-05-2010, 08:47   #33
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Good luck, have your sailmaker come out with you. Show him how high you want the bimini and dodger to be. He'll take measurement for a re-cut and will probably re-cut the back end as well. When he's out with you have him look at the rig and your other sails. A good sailmaker will take the time to look at everything and won't charge you for his time.
This is one of the few pieces of advice to the OP that I can agree with in this entire thread. It's not my intent to dismiss all the other advice from forum members who mean well, but I see a few incorrect assumptions, based on the lack of information that we have.

Many years ago, when I first began sailing, an outstanding instructor said to me: "Look at the sails. They are now properly shaped and you have to memorize the way they look and always use that as your baseline. Remember what we did to achieve this shape, and you will understand most of what you need to know to be a good sailor. There will be times that the conditions of less or more wind will require you to change the shape, but if you know what you did to get this shape, you will know how to change the shape."

Now in this situation we have a couple of pictures of the sail, but we need more information to know exactly what has to be done to get the desired shape. In addition, the OP wants to add a bimini (pretty much a requirement in Florida) that will likely require recutting the sail and relocating the boom.

I think it would be extremely difficult for anyone here to give the OP the advice he needs without actually sailing the boat.

OP, I also second the advice re. Mack Sails. They are excellent. But in any case, you need a good sailmaker to help you achieve your objectives.
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Old 19-05-2010, 09:27   #34
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Actually, I zoomed in so could tell the main wasn't fully up in the picture and used it as a comparison.

Diagonal wrinkles from a tight foot will usually propagate from the entry of the bolt rope feeder to the clew.

Then, we can talk about speed wrinkles.....

And finally, there is over bend:


This discussion could go on and on...... Call the sail maker and ask him to go sailing with you.

And remember, cruising isn't racing.
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The wrinkles are in the main that is further away. Yes, the wrinkles could be caused by the main not being all the way up (although in this instance I see the head of the main pretty much at the top of the mast), but they could also be due to too much outhaul which over-tightens the foot, which is one of the problems I see in the OP's second picture.
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Old 19-05-2010, 09:41   #35
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Joli, I also see this beginning to go around.

To All:
Thank You for the input, I will take it into account and also get with a sail maker. Ill see what he says about making the changes for the bimini.
I assure you that the luff is tight, and the head is as high as it will go. The sail does not go any higher, never has. I am pretty positive it was scalped from another boat at the school but that is only speculation.

I will post the outcome once I have some more concrete answers and the $ for the sail work.

Thanks.
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Old 19-05-2010, 15:38   #36
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Joli, I also see this beginning to go around.

To All:
Thank You for the input, I will take it into account and also get with a sail maker. Ill see what he says about making the changes for the bimini.
I assure you that the luff is tight, and the head is as high as it will go. The sail does not go any higher, never has. I am pretty positive it was scalped from another boat at the school but that is only speculation.

I will post the outcome once I have some more concrete answers and the $ for the sail work.

Thanks.
I crewed for a guy who owned his own boat, and had sailed her across the Atlantic, but swore blind that the trimming lines to rotate the paddle of his Aires wind-vane didn't do anything, and all you had to do was point the boat in the right direction and engage the steering coupling to get it to autopilot for you. He also had no idea why it was impossible for him to raise the main all the way up the track, he even sent me up the mast to check it out. When I watched him try and do it, he kept the mainsheet in nice and tight - so the boom didn't flap about. - think about it, the sail might be the wrong one for the boat, but if you've got those wrinkles in it, then either the luff or the leech are too loose:

If the luff is too loose, then you need to take the tension out of the leech - you do this by easing the outhaul and slackening the mainsheet, then you can tighten the halyard.

If the leech is too loose then the sail isn't holding the weight of the boom - even if you don't have a vang, let the topping lift go completely so the leech takes the weight of the boom, then tighten the mainsheet to tension the leech more. You might end up with a boom hanging down further than you find aesthetically pleasing, but with the tools available to you you should certainly be able to balance the leech/luff tension.

If you try the above to sort out your leech/luff tension but it doesn't work then your mast's not straight and you probably have the wrong forestay/backstay tension balance.

Once you've balanced the tension of leech and luff, you might find that the sail has too much bag in it for you - probably because it's tired.
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Old 19-05-2010, 16:08   #37
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Actually, even if your rig is screwed with the wrong bend in it, you should still be able to balance luff/leech tension with the methods I described
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Old 20-05-2010, 03:06   #38
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G'Day All,

One further possibility that would explain the symptoms: Somewhere along the line, someone has resewn the luff tape (or bolt rope) and made a cockup of the job. The pictures seem to show that the actual luff is quite tight, but the luff region of the sail is slack. I reckon that this scenario would explain the dreadful sail shape! Maybe the previous owner saved too much money on a recut!

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Old 20-05-2010, 06:55   #39
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The point about easing sheets, vangs and topping lifts prior to raising the main is valid.

However, I still see a tight boltrope on the luff.
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Old 20-05-2010, 08:32   #40
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The point about easing sheets, vangs and topping lifts prior to raising the main is valid.

However, I still see a tight boltrope on the luff.
If the bolt rope is tight and you still have wrinkles, there's a couple of possibilities I know of.

1. It was popular for awhile to use shock cord as the bolt rope. I only ever saw this in dinghies like the Finn and 505. The slack came out of the bolt rope long before the wrinkles were out. The shock cord helped bag out the sail when controls were eased.

2. I've seen an increadably bad repair of a sail where the sail wasn't tensioned the right amount before attaching the bolt rope tape. It didn't matter how tight the bolt rope was, you never got the wrinkles out of the sail.

3. I believe I remember reading that either the bolt ropes could shrink or the cloth stretched on old sails, either way you get the same effect.


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Old 20-05-2010, 08:40   #41
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easy theory to test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

One further possibility that would explain the symptoms: Somewhere along the line, someone has resewn the luff tape (or bolt rope) and made a cockup of the job. The pictures seem to show that the actual luff is quite tight, but the luff region of the sail is slack. I reckon that this scenario would explain the dreadful sail shape! Maybe the previous owner saved too much money on a recut!
It should be easy to test this theory by throwing in a reef. If the wrinkles remain, you've got evidence of a "cockup," as Jim so eloquently speculated.

If the wrinkles go away, I'm still holding out for mast shrinkage.
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Old 20-05-2010, 09:42   #42
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Often times with boat problems we find a way to spend $1,000 instead of doing the fix thats right there in front of our face and free.

Have a look at these sections of the photos.

The bolt rope may not be all that tight. Remember of a blown sail the rope may still be far more elastic than the soft and flabby sail. The bolt rope in the old main of ours was a very pliable 3 strand twist I thought would be better suited to a dinghy snubber! It streaches miles. The baggy old sail might not streach much at all.

In photo One you see there is something weird with the bolt rope. Either that line through the slugs is wrapped over the bolt rope (how? badly done slugs?) or it needs to be hoisted more.

Photo Two is immediatly above photo One and you can see something weird there too, and its not a reefing line.

Photo 3 is up the big grey thing and that in 99.9% of cases would be a slack halyard.


So I reckon save all the anguish and do as the previous posters have said and slacken off ALL the kit and hoist the bastard up till the knot touches the sheave.

And make sure the knot is touching the cringle on the headboard.

I betcha any money you like (but not one of my home brew beers) that will fix it.


Mark

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Old 20-05-2010, 18:11   #43
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There is a ton to observe on this sail. Thanks for posting it dfoxcvg. Very brave to expose yourself to all us "experts." - LOL.

The mast slugs at the bottom of the sail look like they are being ripped out of the sail. In terms of sail repair this should be fixed and is an easy one. I still consider the foot way too tight.

With diagonal wrinkles extending aft and downward it indicates the "triangle" formed by the 3 edges is not "perfect" and the mast is bent aft.

Before I start cutting cloth, I would definitely check the basics in terms of the rig. I have never seen a sail bag that bad even in "no airs" but I would definitely lift the boom with the topper, get some wind in it and shoot some more pictures.

I am still betting on mast bent aft, blown out roach and the outhaul, sheeting and/or vang way too tight.

I also suspect very much that the draft is blown out on the sail as well.
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Old 20-05-2010, 18:27   #44
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Yep

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I also suspect very much that the draft is blown out on the sail as well.
I suspect, further, that we'd be near consensus on that inference. Which doubles the argument for a recut.
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Old 20-05-2010, 19:08   #45
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I suspect, further, that we'd be near consensus on that inference. Which doubles the argument for a recut.
Yes but a recut sail badly set will still result in a poorly performing sail.

Additionally if the sail is blown out the cost of recutting may be better spent on a new sail.

I'd love to see this sail set properly.
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