Lying to a Sea Anchor, Lying A-Hull, and Heaving-to Under Reduced Sail

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by dcstrng

Yep, I have it and their fine DVD as well, and assumed it authoritative; however, there seemed to be differing opinions here so not having actually experienced it, I was trying to see where the decision lines might lay...

Yes . . . The vast majority of experienced people we know do not agree with or use the pardey approach. Even the Pardey's themselves did not use the para-anchor when they got into heavy weather rounding the horn (they forereached under trysail) - we were down there when they were there.

But there is some logic to their approach, for their kind of boat (Which does not run well) and for a skipper who does not use modern weather information (so does not know which way to go to get away most quickly from heavy weather). And it is an interesting technique to understand and have in the back of your mind as one of many alternatives.

FAQs 9 & 9a on our site discuss this in much more depth Seamanship

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Lying ahull and heaving to are two completely different things.

With the parachute, you heave to first, then deploy the chute. The chute and bridle simply keep the boat hove to in the proper orientation, with the bow about 50 degrees off the wind.

Not if you read the original post: "...There are three generally accepted ways to heave to in a sail boat: lying to a sea anchor or para-anchor; lying ahull; and, heaving to under reduced sail..."

(sic!!!). Hence my puzzlement as aside from my linguistic incompetence I never saw these three techniques as varieties of heaving to.

The 50 degrees of the wind - fine, but I think if my boat gets hit at 50 degs then the next wave may catch me at ??? what angle? Gods only know. I know there are many proponents but I am still to try out with my own boat and see how she behaves.

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

Running with a following sea is incredibly tiring. You have to get the angle just right to avoid and breakers and to keep from coming down them sideways and ending up beam to in a trough.

And you get to repeat that for every wave. No thanks.

Probably boat-dependable. My boat runs very well - when we get hit she will hardly ever get more than 30 degs off course (long keel, scandinavian koster type). But I too have a challenge here - I get pooped (the cockpit well to voluminous) and I am not sure our washboard will take the huge breaker and stay in place - it is strong and well secured - still, a large flat area ....

b.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, I've never been in survival conditions, but I have run off in force 8 (we had to be someplace) and my hand still hurts from grasping the tiller and trying to keep from broaching as we surfed.

My boat is similar to the Pardeys (full keeled 30 ft cutter) and I find heaving to in snotty weather to be quite easy, especially if I keep an eye on the tiller to keep her nose from falling off. I have a parachute and bridle but have never deployed it, except once to practice. And I hope I never will. I do not have a drogue, but I'm sure I could improvise one if necessary. I hope I never have to do that either.

[CharlieCobra]

Wow, am I the only poster up here who actually enjoys sailing his boat in 50 knots of breeze? I've been out six times in 45+ and once in 60+, SAILING, not hiding. It can't be my boat as she's a wooden yawl and only displaces 7.5 tons. Granted, if faced with monster seas and having been in a storm for more than 12 hours, I might like a nap and a meal, not necessarily in that order. If so, I'm thinking that heaving to would be my preference with the bow hanging around 45 - 55 degrees off the wind. I've heaved to for lunch in 40 knots without issue and had more reefs left. I'm also thinking a drogue strung off a bridle would keep the boat at the desired angle and could be adjusted via the winches if needed. As for sailing? I prefer to broad reach in a big blow if there's sea room. If running in 30+ foot waves, I might wanna trail that same drogue to avoid being pitchpoled.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by CharlieCobra

Wow, am I the only poster up here who actually enjoys sailing his boat in 50 knots of breeze?

I don't know where you are sailing, but in our experience an honest 50kts sustained is very rare. We sailed from the horn to fremantle non-stop (59 days in the southern ocean) and only saw 50kts sustained once (south east of the Falklands). I think in 15 years of offshore cruising in high latitudes we have seen an honest 50 sustained only 5 times (When we were sailing, not sitting at anchor).

We have seen an honest 60 sustained only once, off cape horn. You can tell 60 because there is 'smoke' over the water, where the water is vaporized. Many photos I have seen that are captioned 60kts are clearly much less.

With 50 sustained you will often get gusts to 70, and offshore can get significant breaking waves (Think the '98 Sydney to Hobart conditions). It's the point when Don Street says luck starts to come into play. You are a thrill junkie if you 'enjoy' 50 sustained offshore.

Inshore is different because the water will be flat and you don't have the dangerous breaking waves. But the 'storm tactics' we are discussing in this thread are not really inshore tactics.

But many sailors just look at their highest gusts rather than the sustained winds. Gusts to 50 could be 'only' high 30's/low 40's sustained, and is a much less dramatic situation.

But it is really the waves that cause 'heavy weather' conditions, and require heavy weather tactics, not the wind strength. 35kts with wind against the current in the gulf stream will be much worse than 50kts in protected waters. Wind alone may lay you flat but will not capsize you . . . Breaking waves are the big real danger. With bad luck, they can break and roll any boat using any storm tactic.

[CharlieCobra]

I'll agree with that. If anything's gonna get ya it's the waves. I sail in the PNW so we see gales and storms quite regularly from Fall through Spring and 50 knots sustained isn't that rare up here. Sixty knots gusting to 78 is and I've only seen it twice, once from the deck of Oh Joy. While it's true that 50 knots in the Sound is much different than 50 knots in the Pacific, we do get nasty, steep breaking seas when that wind, swell through the straits and waves are against a big 4 knot ebb. I have been offshore once in 50+ and 28' combined seas on a well found boat and while the seas were big, the periods were long enough that we did just fine. Now if they were 40' and 8-9 second period waves, I doubt I'd enjoy that at all.

I'm thinking that the best course for dealing with weather when making a long passage is to avoid it if ya can. Barring that, be prepared as much as possible. Practicing in conditions you normally wouldn't day sail in helps IMHO.

I think I need to bum another sail on somebody's boat. I only get this way when one of these storms rolls through here and my boat's stuck on the hard. I'd much rather be out there sailing in a Gale then sitting here......

[LeftRoamin]

The following report (link below) was made by a friend of mine. If anybody has seen him lately ..... please let me know.

Thanks,
Richard

CLICK HERE: Zpravy

[CharlieCobra]

According to that last message, he should be making port sometime today.....

[LeftRoamin]

Originally Posted by CharlieCobra

According to that last message, he should be making port sometime today.....

I hope so. I figured about 3 weeks after his last report. I'm sure the wind generator got ripped off the boat during the capsize. If all his power is down, Iridium phone calls may be a problem .... along with navigation and his ability to receive fax weather reports.

[fishwife]

I hope and pray he is OK. I'm very impressed by and salute his atitude. A real sailor. I hope it never happens but he's an example I'll bear in mind if I find myself in mid ocean in dire straits.

P,

[Bash]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

The vast majority of experienced people we know do not agree with or use the pardey approach.

Count me among those who reject the Pardey approach. It might be an appropriate strategy for small boats that perform poorly on a run or a deep broad reach, but I think that for more modern boats with lower length/displacement ratios other strategies are more attractive.

Were I ever to deploy my drogue, it would be less in order to prevent a broach than to alleviate crew fatigue. What the Pardeys fail to understand is that when boats with beamy sterns get up to planing speeds they tend to become more stable rather than less stable.

[CharlieCobra]

That leaves Oh Joy out as she's a S&S designed Pilot Yawl. Full keel with cutaway and old time hull shape. Oh, she'll surf alright, just not like the newer plastic boats will.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by CharlieCobra

That leaves Oh Joy out as she's a S&S designed Pilot Yawl. Full keel with cutaway and old time hull shape. Oh, she'll surf alright, just not like the newer plastic boats will.

The good news is that she'll heave to much more readily than my boat will. It all balances out in the end.

I spent two days running before a gale about 15 years ago. During one 12-hour period my average speed was more than a knot higher than theoretical hull speed. I learned two very important lessons during that event. First, I learned that my boat could handle big winds and high seas a lot better than I had dared to hope. (We never once came close to broaching, never once got pooped, never once had green water on deck.) Second, I learned never again to sail on a tight schedule. The best storm tactic of all is to wait for a favorable weather window.

[CharlieCobra]

Agreed. I've seen 12 knots surfing Oh Joy with a hull speed of just over 7 and averaged 10 on a short passage in a Gale so she'll surf alright but she'll hove to easily too. I've hove to for a meal, smoke, what have you in a Gale just to practice or because I wanted to. I really like the abilities of the old girl. I just wish she had a bit more interior space at times.