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Old 26-12-2011, 11:57   #121
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Re: Lost at Sea from S/V 'Triple Stars'

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
So in summary. Clip in and wear a helmet.

Lot of posts for a pretty simple comment.

Do what ever you personally like and make any rules you like for your boat. Just don't mandate anything on me.

Fat people and sailing? If you wanna be 5'8" @ 350 lbs and want to go cruising I suggest you stick to royal carribean. They have good buffets, I hear.

We are in a generation of me, me, me. All access all the time. I weight 350 and I want to jam my lard ass into an economy seat. If Dan goes sailng, I should have the right to go sailing, and oh, it should be zero risk. And if I can't get my lard ass on a boat after falling over and I drown let's apply a bunch of useless regulations on Dan, who doesn't weigh 350, can climb back on the boat and is smart enough to duck when the boom crosses.

Oh, and if some day I forget to duck and get knocked overboard, and my trained crew can't rescue me and I die. Have a grreat wake, remember I lived a grreat life and move on. It is not a call for stricter boating freakin' standards and lawsuits.

And for the fattie in the original post? If you can't help me and my crew you will not be on my boat. And if you are a liability you are not on my boat. And to do her a favor you should have told her she had no business being near a boat until she lost a couple hundred pounds.

I speak from experience. I was too fat. I ain't a fattie but my racing skipper sat me down, said lose 10kg minimum or get flicked. I lost ten kg. I didn't blame my genes, thyroid, big bones or any otheer damn thing. I lost 10kg becuase he was right. I was a less effective crewman.

Rant off...
I totaly agree with you...I lost 100lbs
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Old 26-12-2011, 12:14   #122
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Re: Safety of Life at Sea - Life and death matters at sea.

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Hadn't heard of that one. In what state(s) does this apply?

AussieGeoff
They have new laws regarding crossing bars going in and out in NSW, Make sure your life jacket is on,
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Old 26-12-2011, 14:21   #123
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Re: Safety of Life at Sea - Life and death matters at sea.

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Originally Posted by Piney View Post
There really seems to be WAY too many posts on this forum about folks being afraid of the sea. If you even have the slightest fear of going to sea, then it is not for you. Stay on land. The sea WILL kill you.

It really has nothing to do with how much saftey equipment you can purchase or if you have a million dollars worth of the best marine electronics.
Common sense can not be purchased or taught.

Its an ancient formula.

Landlubbers + sea = death
I didn't notice that many posts about being afraid of the sea. But, to state that having the SLIGHTEST fear of going to sea means your not capable and GOING to die is absolutely stupid.

Posts like this really make me laugh, but not in a good way.
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Old 26-12-2011, 15:17   #124
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A couple of things:

regarding fitness: Another sailor drowned a few years back here in MDR - he was a yacht broker, and the fleet was hit by strong conditions outside of the harbor.

He went overboard, and was "recovered" but was so overwieght that the fully crewed boat was unable to bring him aboard.

He expired in the water, right next to the boat.

So obesity is a risk factor - but so what?

After assisting in the rescue of the young lady, several people made comments that they thought were humorous "Call marine mammal rescue" etc.

They werent in the water with her.

I was.

She was a human being - she had family and friends, and even though she was drunk and over weight, that shouldnt earn the death penalty for falling off of a boat in the harbor.

But given the current state of MOB recovery tactics and equipment, it often is.

It's high time the whole thing was questioned - Keel to truck.

Millions of people swim here in Southern California in the summer.

Millions.

From little babies to geriatric obese tourists.

We get huge hurricane driven south swells that break like freight trains and that generate powerful rip-currents - currents that occur over deep channels in the surf line, and that will suck you out to sea like a river.

LA, Orange, and San Diego county lifegaurds are some of the best in the world, and drownings are almost unheard of here - even on hot holiday weekends crowded with people who barely know how to swim, and powerful surf that even I wont venture out in.

It didnt used to be like this.

At the turn of the century, drownings were common at popular beaches - sometimes a dozen or more people would be dragged out to sea and drowned:

"On the first weekend of May 1918, San Diego was enveloped by a spring heat wave. Large crowds descended on the beaches, where lifeguard protection was minimal at best. On the first Sunday, strong rip currents began pulling off the shoreline of crowded Ocean Beach. Within view of thousands of spectators, several swimmers found themselves being dragged out to sea. Soon tiring, they began screaming for assistance. Without a professional lifesaving corps in place, the victims drowned. At the risk of their own lives, several military personnel went out into the treacherous surf to assist, only to suffer the same tragic fate of those whom they had sought to aid. When the disaster unfolded, thirteen men had lost their lives."

Surf rescue was poorly understood, and so were wave and current dynamics.

Work boats would founder near shore, usually with the loss off all hands, while bystanders watched helplessly.

Eventually, self bailing surf dories were employed - a better adaptation of fishing technology, but still inadequite. To this day however, county lifeguards engage in fierce international surf dory competitions, keeping this legacy alive:

DorySpecs

Then a Hawian surfer and olympic gold medalist swimmer Duke Kahanamoku, visited LA:

Duke Kahanamoku - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What followed was a watershed event in the history of Los Angeles lifesaving:

"While living in Newport Beach, California on June 14, 1925, Kahanamoku rescued eight men from a fishing vessel that capsized in heavy surf while attempting to enter the city's harbor.[8] 29 fishermen went into the water and 17 perished. Using his surfboard, he was able to make quick trips back and forth to shore to increase the number of sailors rescued.[9] Two other surfers saved four more fishermen. Newport's police chief at the time called Duke's efforts "the most superhuman surfboard rescue act the world has ever seen."

Duke introduced the surfboard as a rescue device, and demonstrated its effectiveness by personally rescuing 8 sailors from drowning.

Today's lifeguards still carry rescue surfboards atop thier jeeps.

But the surfboard itself is almost never used: Now they all use those red torpeedo floats made famous by "Baywatch" - an invention of another Hawaain surfer (and freind of Duke's) named George Freeth:

LEGENDARY SURFER: GEORGE FREETH By Arthur C. Verge

"To George, an ocean lifeguard was "at one with the water," being proficient not only in ocean swimming, but also in rowing and surfing. In Freeth's vision, the concept of lifesavers, whose primary mission was to respond to someone in distress, would be replaced by lifeguards, whose purpose was focused primarily on preventing situations where rescues became necessary. In short, where the traditional view of lifesaving was reactive, Freeth's view of lifeguarding was pro-active."

Freeth's contributions are legenday - driven by a rational approach to surf rescue.

Note his empasis on "prevention".

Note how he understood the dynamics of waves and beach currents, and turned them to his advantage:

Rip currents are a surfer's best friend: When the surf is really big at a "beach break" (sand bottom) they carve channels perpendicular to shore, and flow out to sea. So what a surfer does is he looks for the disturbed turbulent water - the "rip" and jumps into it, gaining a free ride out past the breakers, to safety, where he can then manunuver himself into position by swimming or paddling parallel to shore, and out of the current.

The only way a rip current can kill you is if you fight it by attempting to swim directly back to shore - the exact instinct of a panicked, unskilled ocean swimmer in rough water.

I see many paralells with 19th century surf drownings and 21st century MOB deaths.

The dynamics of ocean waves are poorly understood, and thus feared.

But as a lifelong surfer, when I look at such waves, I have to chuckle:

Yes, they are BIG.

But they are what surfers call "mushburgers" - mostly whitewater - areated foam - and even huge walls of whitewater dont scare surfers much - we just "duck-dive" under them, to the solid water a few inches below it, and we wait for it to pass.

Surfers understand that there is a rythm to the sea. This is reflected in "sets" of waves - generally they come in groups of three larger waves - double the average hieght.

and we wait for these waves, and try to spot and catch them before the other surfers, which requires a sixth sense and a keen eye.

These same waves are generated by the storms sailors find themselves in, so it stands to reason that storms have a similar rythm.

Swim in the surf, even small surf, and try fighting it: You will be quickly exhausted by 3 foot waves, I assure you.

But learn how to go with the rythm, duck-dive, and conserve energy through good timing and use of currents, and suddenly, even large surf is fairly simple to deal with.

You quickly learn that angling across wave faces is much more effective than slamming straight into them.

You learn when "caught inside" by a large "set" to relax, hyperventilate for a few breaths, then turn your back to the 10 foot wall of whitewater at the last second, with a lung full of air, allowing it to pass over your boyant body.

You learn that some days are more dangerous than others.

Some days you stay on the beach.

So - when at sea, understand that you are in an uncontrolled, dynamic environment.

Seek to balance the forces on your boat, and keep it moving diagonally through the dominant waves.

Understand that an ocassional "set" of waves will strike. These are not rouge or freaks - they are just the product of dynamic superimpositions and chaotic - not random - forces.

They will pass. Keep an eye out for them. At night you cannot see them, so you better be securely attached to the boat.

Mountain and rock climbing used to be much more deadly than it is today.

But techniques and belaying equipment evolved, and now equipment failure is rarely implicated in deaths.

The arguments sailors make against tethers remind me of the arguments people used to make against seat-belts in cars and helmets on motorcycles.

They remind me of the debate in surfing when leashes were first introduced to keep surfers attached to thier boards.

These areguments were spurious - bogus - and now even top professional surfers use leashes - and foot straps for tow-in surfing of unimaginably huge waves like this:



....note: he wiped out in the whitewater at the end of that ride - and he survived. Even larger waves have since been ridden - but they only appear once every decade or so.

We need to re-think small boat MOB prevention and rescue techniques the same way men like Grelach and Laird Hamilton rethought surfing.

If they can play in such waves, sailors should be able to stay attached to thier damned boats.

Wear a harness and rig jacklines at sea. Rig those lines close to the boat's centerline, and consider a double tether. If your boat is big, consider dividing the lines into short segments to reduce stretch, clipping and unclipping around thier attechments with yoir double tether. Rig chest high lines from your cap shrouds to the stern pulpit at sea.

Net your foredeck.

Install additional handholds - inside and outside of the cabin, especially around the companionway, after carefully studing where you habitually brace and grab in rough weather.

Use a tether at all times out of the cockpit, and even in the cockpit at night. All crew are required to wear PFDs outside of the harbor at all times if they can swim, and at all times, period, if they cant or consider themselves weak swimmers.

No exceptions on my boat, and as skipper, I set an example by wearing mine at all times.

I use my tether at all times singlehanding, and Its now second nature - I feel wierd when its off.

Consider purchasing the Standard Horizon waterproof DSC Handheld VHF, and require all watchstanders to carry one.

make sure your radio is interfaced with your GPS, and can make and recieve DSC calls. Yes, DSC and the whole MMSI thing is needlessly complicated and poorly implemented - but its benefits are enormous:

90% of all distress calls contain no position information, and DSC eliminates this problem.

Practice with it - get seperate MMSIs for each VHF aboard - there are other benefits to DSC like position polling that allow you to track your ship or crew when they are seperated.

Practice with it. This may be your only way to find a MOB victim:

Think about it:

MOB survivors universally report "watching the boat sail away" from them, while crews attempting recovery universally report "not seeing" the victim.

Turn this apparent liability into an asset, just like surfers use rip-currents:

The MOB is in a position to verbally GUIDE THE CREW BACK TO HIM if he is in voice contact: HE CAN SEE THE SHIP.

Current MOB equipment mostly focuses on making the victim more visible - its a passive strategy.

Empower the victim to aid in his own rescue: Empowerment is a powerful psychological tool - it's when a victim gives up that they die. As long as they have hope - and talking to your potential rescuers will certainly provide that - there is hope.

When winds are over a certain force - say "7" have everyone don helmets and kayak style life vests.

Helmets prevent head injuries, and the semi-rigid floatation foam of a kayak vest will prevent the internal injuries and broken ribs so often reported by surviving crews caught out in ultimate storms.

Consider deploying your life raft for the MOB.

"it takes too long" you say?

FIGURE OUT A WAY TO ACCOMPLISH THE TASK WITHIN 10 SECONDS SAILOR!

Mount a small valasie style raft on the stern pulpit - it can benan open 2 man model, and it wont take up anymore space than that almost useles lifesling you should abandon in favor of a climbing harness anyway.

Deployed quickly, along with some marker dye or a smoke signal andna strobe, and you have a much better visual marker than the best MOB pole in the world, and again, a place for a victim to climb into, or at least cling to - as well as a platform for recuers to climb into and assist the victim out of the water.

Someone independent should conduct trials - like the US Sailing association - on an ongoing basis as products are developed - at sea, in bad conditions - with people trained in ocean rescue like USCG rescue swimmers.

US Sailing did a flatwater evaluation a few years back as I recall of several major products, including the lifesling, and the results were not encouraging.

Testing protocols and standards should be developed.

Assumptions must be questioned, and abandoned if they dont prove useful.

Solo ocean sailors should consider carrying PLBs in addition to the HHDSCVHF - these have become amazingly affordable, and at least inshore, give your best hope of alerting rescuers to your position and distress.

When I look at the photo of that couple, I see two people who had the courage to set off and live thier dreams - dreams that were senselessly denied them becuase of the collective failure of the recreational cruising and sailing establishment to insist on a level headed, systematic program of risk reduction and management at sea.

I hope to never hear of such a tagic thing again, but unless the sport / passtime of sailing moves into the 21st century, I fear such stories will remain all too common, costing lives, spreading heartbreak, and scaring potential sailors and cruisers away from a wonderful sport.
+1 an excellent overview of the current position and what to do about it. Attitudes to safety are antediluvian in cruising. ( all this freedom of the seas nonsense) the industry needs to step up to the plate and seriously look at the issues. Equally sailors need to wise up and adopt modern systems and approaches.

Dave

Ps the fattie argument strikes me of the untermenschen argument very distasteful.
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Old 26-12-2011, 16:58   #125
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Re: Lost at Sea from S/V 'Triple Stars'

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I totaly agree with you...I lost 100lbs
Earlier this year I lost 30lbs, without even trying - but down to 130lbs (9 1/2 stone) a bit light even for me so over the last month or so have put 20lbs back on .
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Old 26-12-2011, 17:43   #126
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Re: Lost at Sea from S/V 'Triple Stars'

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Earlier this year I lost 30lbs, without even trying - but down to 130lbs (9 1/2 stone) a bit light even for me so over the last month or so have put 20lbs back on .
Sounds like me. Not hard to fall to 120, but 140 is my natural weight.
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Old 27-12-2011, 06:35   #127
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Re: Lost at Sea from S/V 'Triple Stars'

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
+1 an excellent overview of the current position and what to do about it. Attitudes to safety are antediluvian in cruising. ( all this freedom of the seas nonsense) the industry needs to step up to the plate and seriously look at the issues. Equally sailors need to wise up and adopt modern systems and approaches.
Am not so sure "the industry" needs to step up to anything - as it is, can get training on everything from how to tie a knot (or shoelaces? ) to withstanding an attack by Martians .......if "the industry" can sell a(nother) safety related item, they will - and if it is genuinely a step forward (rather than simply pandering to / exploiting fear) then everyone is a winner .

In Hogans posts I hear the all too frequent modern cry of "something must be done" and that's a Govt thing - which usually ends up on my tax bill ......and no, I really don't care if some of the ignorant or dimwitted or unlucky die - but given that most sailors (no matter how ill prepared) manage to avoid dying / falling overboard / getting rescued etc etc then IMO the cry for "more safety" is simply a solution looking for a problem, when none exists (but of course can nonetheless can still be created / proved ).

Also sounds a bit like someone who has discovered the wheel and wishes to tell everyone about this amazing idea - when others are driving around in cars.........


IMO the biggest (genuine) advances in safety for the recreational sailor over the last 30 years or so have been:-

- Roller Furling headsails
- GPS
- Inboard diesel engines that can propel a sailing boat at hull speed (or near enough) whilst on passage.
- Marine equipment becoming more affordable, at least in relative terms (liferafts, lifejackets and VHF radios etc).
- The internet!

Plusses and minuses to enabling folks who times passed would have stayed onshore without any / all of the above....but overall I think plusses for all.

Most of the above are about prevention rather than finding a cure for something that has already gone wrong - but none of them guarantee that things won't go wrong nor provide a magic solution when they do (inc. Liferafts)........nothing can, whether wrapping self (or boat) in cotton wool or wearing a helmet . Ain't no one can save you from yourself.

In regard to the boom head interface problem, there are easy (non-helmet) answers - it's not as if a helmet would prevent all injuries or simply the boom sweeping someone over board. But simply not getting hit by the boom in the first place would......... Indeed, I have seen mention over the years that even Bicycle helmets have a downside, Wiki indicates not as much a no brainer (lol!) as some would like (I was going to say "think", but that might be overstating the position of some ).

Bicycle helmet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


But I appreciate that what I want and get from my own boat experiances may well be different to others. Me greatly values the ability to make decisions for self and to live (or not?!) with the consequences - for some I guess that is a scary concept, but it has always been thus.
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Old 27-12-2011, 07:08   #128
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I disagree. The current approach in boat safety is to completely underplay the issues. There is an unholy trinity of safety manufacturers, boat builder and boat buyers all contributing to the myth of warm sea and hula hula girls at every corner.

The death toll remains low primarily because of the fact that most yachts get little use, never leave the marina except on flat calm days or the owners never go out in bad weather.

What is obvious is looking at professionals who find themselves in treacherous conditions on a regular basis, their level of equipment, the design of their boats and their training are orders of magnitude above the leisure sailor. So the professional feels that when it's cones to serious inspection this is what's needed.

I agree with hogan, modern sailors have made few concessions to safety. Mob in particular is almost ignored. No method of getting injured people on board , training systems that simply don't work. ( rya mob cannot be done shorthanded) , equipment that in reality are just toys.

None of this relates to Government interference or tax dollars that's a completely specious argument. Its obvious that in our hobby when things get tough, people still die. While we can't completely eliminate such deaths, we can seek to improve safety systems that are at best mediocre.

Better boat design , realistic training and support hardware., safety systems that work. Proper appraisals of neccessary equipment and procedures to use them.

Governments only step in where there is a perceived unwillingness to solve problems. As a result the resulting legislation is often ham fisted, but generally has the best intentions.

Dave
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Old 27-12-2011, 11:39   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey


Also sounds a bit like someone who has discovered the wheel and wishes to tell everyone about this amazing idea - when others are driving around in cars.........
I am definitely stealing that line - LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
<snip>

IMO the biggest (genuine) advances in safety for the recreational sailor over the last 30 years or so have been:-

- Roller Furling headsails
- GPS
- Inboard diesel engines that can propel a sailing boat at hull speed (or near enough) whilst on passage.
- Marine equipment becoming more affordable, at least in relative terms (liferafts, lifejackets and VHF radios etc).
- The internet!
12v blender...


Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
<snip>.

In regard to the boom head interface problem, there are easy (non-helmet) answers - it's not as if a helmet would prevent all injuries or simply the boom sweeping someone over board. But simply not getting hit by the boom in the first place would......... Indeed, I have seen mention over the years that even Bicycle helmets have a downside, Wiki indicates not as much a no brainer (lol!) as some would like (I was going to say "think", but that might be overstating the position of some ).

.
Santa brought my son a new mountain bike for Chrissie. On the ELEVENTH!!! Page of warnings it said basically , "never ride a bike without a helmet or you will die." Then it said something like, "after riding do not wear the helmet! The strap could catch on something and create a choking hazard!!!"

At page 13 of the warnings I gave up.

In regards to boating safety, it is myopic to think that things haven't changed. Every charter boat I rent has life slings, when I visit US waters I am surprised at how "geared up" everyone is with pfds, and harnesses, and tethers and so on for day sailing in smooth waters.

Even with a helmet many large booms can knock you over. The recent thread here on the fastnet training accident showed the girl wasn't critically injured because of the blow to the head, she broke her neck hitting the lazarette edge,

So does that argue for helmets with HANS devices? So we mandate boat design so the boom has minimum deck clearances? Do we mandate retrofitting all non-compliant boats?

There is tons of money spent on boater education. What we don't need are more laws.

Having said that I am a proponent of boat licensing. If a boat has a motor bigger than say 5 hp, you should have to pass a rules of the road course.

Many of the human activities, even riding a bike, carry risk of death. Yes we should talk about safety and talk about the risks but we shouldn't crreate more laws.
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Old 27-12-2011, 12:08   #130
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I don't think hogan or I ever mentioned more laws. Though I am now In favour of compulsory certification, a turnaround for me but there's too many idiots out there now

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Old 27-12-2011, 13:03   #131
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Re: Lost at Sea from S/V 'Triple Stars'

everyone needs to crack the noggin once to learn to DUCK .
only boat i ever sailed without boom constraints is KETCH. main boom rarely used and when is, isnt in cockpit.
stuff happens and is sad when it does.. cannot be on top of everything-- just those things we can fix ourselves. sad when there is a human loss or pet loss involved.
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Old 28-12-2011, 07:28   #132
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Re: Lost at Sea from S/V 'Triple Stars'

A common cause of death a few decades ago was falling off of a horse. A helmet wouldn't help you there, the death results from a broken neck. Back then they didn't design a new safety harness, with guard rails, seat belts, and a neck support backboard to cushion the fall,...THEY JUST LEARNED NOT TO FALL OFF OF THE HORSE.

Not sure how that corresponds to sailing, except that they also limited their weight to what the horse could carry.

Being alert to wind shifts, and boom location, and sail trim AT ALL TIMES, will greatly reduce head boom incidents.

Having sailed a Laser, I found that if I wasn't watching, the boom hits me just below the chin, even when crouched. After a few times of getting smacked in the face, every time I felt something change, (wind intensity, waves pattern, helm pressure), I would reflexively duck, (and get ready to switch sides). Sometimes I was wrong, the boom wouldn't whizz past my ear, other times it did.

In a modern full sized cruising sailboat the boom is over the Bimini, so you have to work hard to hit your head with it. (unless changing sails), I have been hanging from the boom with my toes dangling over the water so I don't have much room to talk.

It seems to me that sailers have a perfect dieting tool to lose weight if needed, just pack reduced rations. When you run out, you just went on a diet like it or not.
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Old 28-12-2011, 15:36   #133
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Re: Lost at Sea from S/V 'Triple Stars'

I feel that the intellectual side of sailing is pretty easy. The problem is usually not a lack of knowledge, but the way people choose to balance risk with other things going on in their heads.

Everyone knows that the safest way to drive is to choose a safe car, wear a seatbelt, focus on driving, not speed, and never use a phone. But few people always drive that way.

We know that we should have sturdy, conservative boats, wear harnesses, cover safety details well, and etc. But eventually sailing becomes normal life, and people start to balance convenience and risk in their own way. And some people simply lack stamina, or a strong inner will to survive, and tend to take shortcuts and let details slide whenever they get tired or it doesn't fit the other things going on in their head (make port by lunch, or whatever).

This is not something that certification can fix. I took a safety class that was required by an offshore race, and did not feel it was valuable. We fired flares, tried to get into a liferaft from a pool, and even had a coast guard helicopter rescue swimmer demonstration. It was fun, but little of the content was actually helpful.

I think the best thing someone can learn is a morbid imagination, and a strong connection to reality. People that I've sailed with who I feel are dangerous seem to lack these two things. They do not fear failure and tend to dismiss "running aground" or "falling overboard" as points that are subtracted from a video game.

So what drives me to triple check navigation, or to not fall asleep on watch, even when I am dead tired? Fear of my body being smashed against rocks by waves. Or clip on when I go forward, even if it's not convenient? Fear of seeing the boat sail away from me as I tread water for hours before I die.

For me, fear does have a place at sea. It is sometimes my source of inner drive, that I use to force myself to do things I know, intellectually, that I should do, but have trouble forcing myself, physically or emotionally, to do.

Also, I am not saying anything about Triple Stars. I have no idea what their situation was like, but I know that I have sometimes chosen to not wear a harness in the cockpit in bad weather. And I usually get comfortable with the prevailing seas, even when they are large, and have been completely surprised by a single wave that was much larger than any other. So I can see how I could easily have made their same choices, and "there but for the grace..."
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Old 30-12-2011, 05:51   #134
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pirate Re: Lost at Sea from S/V 'Triple Stars'

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Am not so sure "the industry" needs to step up to anything - as it is, can get training on everything from how to tie a knot (or shoelaces? ) to withstanding an attack by Martians .......if "the industry" can sell a(nother) safety related item, they will - and if it is genuinely a step forward (rather than simply pandering to / exploiting fear) then everyone is a winner .

In Hogans posts I hear the all too frequent modern cry of "something must be done" and that's a Govt thing - which usually ends up on my tax bill ......and no, I really don't care if some of the ignorant or dimwitted or unlucky die - but given that most sailors (no matter how ill prepared) manage to avoid dying / falling overboard / getting rescued etc etc then IMO the cry for "more safety" is simply a solution looking for a problem, when none exists (but of course can nonetheless can still be created / proved ).

Also sounds a bit like someone who has discovered the wheel and wishes to tell everyone about this amazing idea - when others are driving around in cars.........


IMO the biggest (genuine) advances in safety for the recreational sailor over the last 30 years or so have been:-

- Roller Furling headsails
- GPS
- Inboard diesel engines that can propel a sailing boat at hull speed (or near enough) whilst on passage.
- Marine equipment becoming more affordable, at least in relative terms (liferafts, lifejackets and VHF radios etc).
- The internet!

Plusses and minuses to enabling folks who times passed would have stayed onshore without any / all of the above....but overall I think plusses for all.

Most of the above are about prevention rather than finding a cure for something that has already gone wrong - but none of them guarantee that things won't go wrong nor provide a magic solution when they do (inc. Liferafts)........nothing can, whether wrapping self (or boat) in cotton wool or wearing a helmet . Ain't no one can save you from yourself.

In regard to the boom head interface problem, there are easy (non-helmet) answers - it's not as if a helmet would prevent all injuries or simply the boom sweeping someone over board. But simply not getting hit by the boom in the first place would......... Indeed, I have seen mention over the years that even Bicycle helmets have a downside, Wiki indicates not as much a no brainer (lol!) as some would like (I was going to say "think", but that might be overstating the position of some ).

Bicycle helmet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


But I appreciate that what I want and get from my own boat experiances may well be different to others. Me greatly values the ability to make decisions for self and to live (or not?!) with the consequences - for some I guess that is a scary concept, but it has always been thus.
+A1.....
I find those advocating the 'Something must be Done' cry is usually from some one trying to make money out of me... like Sailing Schools/Instructors/Associations, Insurance Companies, Manufacturers of unnessecary gadgets/extra's etc...
But as the song goes...
"Got along without ya before I met ya... gonna get along without ya now....
Boom Boom..."
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Old 30-12-2011, 07:41   #135
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Re: Lost at Sea from S/V 'Triple Stars'

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Originally Posted by Seahunter View Post
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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
+A1.....
I find those advocating the 'Something must be Done' cry is usually from some one trying to make money out of me... like Sailing Schools/Instructors/Associations, Insurance Companies, Manufacturers of unnessecary gadgets/extra's etc...
We'll just send you the SAR bill for the cost of recovery; after all safety is all about "money".
I would be perfectly happy with the "send me the bill" approach to SAR. Same way as if I cr#p in my own pants I get the cleaning bill.

Indeed, I would be happy with no SAR being available

- over here we have a fixed wing spotter plane (run by a Charity - probably with some Govt Funding), can call in help from the French (Helicopter), and the RNLI (a charity)........in regard to the latter organisation, next year I may well be filing a DNR (Do Not Rescue!) Notice with them anyway (first I have to create a DNR Notice )........so I would be pretty much on my own (finding crew may be a challenge! - but that optional anyway)..........the issue I have with them is that I don't support any organisations that has Woo as a part of there operations - but that will largely depend on how much free time I have on my hands next year .
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