Licensing

[dandrews]

[QUOTE="jackdale"]

Power Squadron courses are all theory, there is no practical demonstration actual boating skills.

Changes are in the planning phases at this time to change this. On-the-water exams may soon be part of Power Squadron programs.

Don

[jackdale]

[QUOTE=dandrews;849203]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Power Squadron courses are all theory, there is no practical demonstration actual boating skills.

Changes are in the planning phases at this time to change this. On-the-water exams may soon be part of Power Squadron programs.

Don

I am glad to hear that. Unfortunately there are many liability / insurance issues. Have they looked at the Memorandums of Agreement with the current on the water certifying agencies? They are stringent.

http://www.sailing.ca/images/uploads...S%20201106.pdf

http://www.sailing.ca/images/uploads...02011%2006.pdf

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I gotta say Jackdale, my recollection of the Canadian (now mandatory) Pleasure Craft Operator Card test was that it was a joke.

No argument here. Have you checked out Irish Sailing Association ICC requirements? Somewhat close to CYA Basic and ISPA Competent Crew / Day Skipper with some Intermediate / Coastal Skipper.

[dana-tenacity]

The NZ authorities have a look at the licensing/registration issue every few years. Every time all the research tells them that there is zero improvement in accident statistics for countries that have such systems. Thus to date we have been spared any of this nonsense.

Unfortunatley the old sailors that ran Maritime NZ are steadily being replaced by shiny arsed desk jockeys and bean counters and I wonder how much longer we will be free.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by dana-tenacity

Every time all the research tells them that there is zero improvement in accident statistics for countries that have such systems. .

Canada

A recent Canadian Red Cross study covering 15 years of boating deaths in Canada (1991 to 2006) found that boating-related deaths have fallen to half what they were 20 years ago. The 2006 data suggests these figures are still falling.

Our system was introduced in 1999. The exam is somewhat spurious, but our numbers are down.

It would be difficult to provide a causal connection.

I cannot find more current numbers.

[AussieGeoff]

As far as I know, and certainly in my home state, you REQUIRE a Boat Operators License to operate a boat fitted with an engine. Period. It's a few hours study on basic 'rules of the road', mandatory safety equipment carriage and some specific things such as definitions of protected, semiprotected and unprotected waters (which affects what equipment you are required to have), and it covers boat registration requirements too. (A yacht with an engine fitted is a power boat for the purposes of requiring rego -$320 a year for my just over 10m Hartley) A pure sail boat requires no boat license and no registration. But it can't have an engine in it, even if it doesn't work.

The license is free and doesn't ever expire.

AussieGeoff

[goboatingnow]

The ICC would provide a good model for basic compulsory training It contains both theory and practical and can be done in two days ( ie a weekend) in Ireland and the UK it's administered cheaply through the sailing associations. The ICC was developed under the auspices of the UN ecomonic commission for Europe , which has56 members , including the US!

Arguments about government inference, the live free or die bridage etc are spurious, if you don't like your political system or you don't trust your government, them change them. None of this invalidates the arguments for basic training ( which is different from licensing) in most countries for example including the US you need compulsory training to use amateur radio, yet arguably pressing the wrong button wont kill your radio mates or cause you radio shack to founder. Yet I see no calls to abandon such licensing. Most hams want licensing to remain in Some form as it brings a degree of order.

Licensing as a route to taxation is another spurious argument, governments are well able to tax boaters without any need to license them.

It's true that mandatory training is by definition Entry level, it can't be anything other then reasonably basic. But that at least ensures that successful candidates learn something. Nobody passing exams, especially practical exams without learning something

As to the phrase " I've been sailing for x years I don't need a certificate" well as a former sailing instructor, you would be surprised at the reluctance of many old timers to consider training partly out of the fear that they don't actually know things, that they should. Again such arguments are spurious, if you have acquired the relevant experience then you'll obviously ace the test, what's the problem. ( perhaps you hide a fear that you dont know some stuff)

With rising levels of people taking to the water, often in large or fast boats, it's clear to me w are fast approaching the tipping point.

Dave

[donradcliffe]

If you want to see where government boating licenses will end up, just look what has happened to radio licensing--You now need a restricted operators license to operate a marine SSB. It requires no theory or practical testing, but costs $60. Does that license make you a better operator or protect the public??

[SteveT]

Why is it that no one queries the need to get some kind of training and a licence before you take a car on the road yet when it comes to driving a boat away regardless of size or power there are wails and protestations? In the UK we don't have mandatory licensing and every year some balloon thinks he can just sail/motor off into the sunset and ends up being rescued. Again in the UK there is no charge for being rescued (which is as it should be in my opinion) but some blokes are repeat offenders and there is no sanction whatsoever. As a professional mariner who is licensed and has to take refresher courses etc. at mandated intervals and is regulated to a fair the well I don't have much sympathy for the nay-sayers.

[TEE]

Everybody wants to make the world a safer place. Usually that means they take some anecdotal story of tragedy, then try to demand the bureaucrats impose demanding standards that always involve more cost and inconvenience for me. First, comes the licensing, then comes the fees, then comes renewals and more fees, then more cops on the water --who in my personal experience where i live are largely idiots with guns-- then more fees. I started sailing to get offshore and away from those people. To give you an example since anecdotal stories seem in vogue. A few years ago, I was anchored with some other boats just about 100 feet off a sandy beach. We were loading BBQ grills, coolers and groceries in dinghys to take the stuff in. A water cop shows up --obviously without too little to do-- and starts writing a ticket to the guys in a dinghy in the boat next to mine for not having pfds in the boat. I tell my guys to load the stuff in the dinghy then grab the painter and swim in with it, but stay off the boat. The cop comes over to us next making some comments about the pfds and I have to tell him theres no law against swimming while towing a boat and since he thinks being in a boat without pfds is too dangerous, I told my guys to play it safe and swim in. Every since then I have come to the realization that too much government regulation is bad. You can pass laws and require licenses, but then that only leads to more fees, fines and more people with guns and no brains "enforcing the code." I do not believe mandating the safety of other people is my business, and I wish other people would butt out of my business. There will always be some risk of tragedy, but if you read the thread this sprung from, the people involved were experienced and competent sailors. They knew the risks, but were sailing anyway because that is what sailors do. Adding another layer of costs, silly tests and courses to their resume wouldn't have changed anything. What happened to them could happen to anyone who makes a passage. If you ask sailors what to do in a storm, what safety precautions are standard, and what equipment a boat should have, you are always going to get a different answer. How would you even give a test for that. There are no right or wrong answers, except it depends.

[Hillbillylad]

Originally Posted by SteveT

Why is it that no one queries the need to get some kind of training and a licence before you take a car on the road yet when it comes to driving a boat away regardless of size or power there are wails and protestations? In the UK we don't have mandatory licensing and every year some balloon thinks he can just sail/motor off into the sunset and ends up being rescued. Again in the UK there is no charge for being rescued (which is as it should be in my opinion) but some blokes are repeat offenders and there is no sanction whatsoever. As a professional mariner who is licensed and has to take refresher courses etc. at mandated intervals and is regulated to a fair the well I don't have much sympathy for the nay-sayers.

Because there is no continuity. Come to the USA and watch a licensed driver. British ex pats are advised not to take a DMV test in a standard gear box car. Why? Because Americans , even the examiners have no clue how to drive one. The standard of driving is so low here they should never be allowed on European roads and god forbid they ever got on an autobahn.
So where do you set the bar?....Buggered if I know as a noob but I do know this, if some fisherman from Cornwall told me I was doing something wrong , I'd take notice,if some fresh faced breast from the American coast guard with a chest full of scrambled egg told me where I was going wrong , I'd tell him to stick it where the sun don't shine.
I don't want anyone giving me advice save them that are doing what I am doing and doing it for real and no government official fills that role.

[David_Old_Jersey]

There are a couple of good posts (pro-licencing) in the original thread that have got me thinking and I am still mulling over..........

But seeing as a new thread..........I really don't think universal licencing is called for (both for cost and the little benefit it will bring - the stupid and the wilfully ignorant will always remain just that) - it's more of an area specific problem (if indeed it is a real problem), mainly due to numbers. The more boats the more will be clueless.

The easy (safe) options are:-

A) to ban all boats under 30 foot, unless accompanied by a fully manned all weather RIB, licenced by the State. Can't ever be too careful when it comes to "safety".

B) For boats over 30 foot the annual licence fee is $1,000. per foot. that'll thin the numbers out .....and cut down on the peasant class afloat .

Of course laws without enforcement are simply warm words and wishful thinking (hence the highish annual fee).....but plenty of folks (in Govt and out ) have made good careers out of riding that gravy train - and ended up with good pensions.

Don't like my proposals? Tough titty. They work for me . and think of all the lives saved.

Be careful what you wish for..........

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Don't like my proposals? Tough titty. They work for me . and think of all the lives saved.

Be careful what you wish for..........

Your proposals sound a lot like mine for cars, i.e. nothing with less than 8 cylinders allowed on the road etc. would solve the traffic jams and put those who can't really afford it anyway in the public transport system so that they can be directly milked by the government.

Back to boats, I don't see practice exams working on large scale, but just colregs and coastal navigation (with chart, pencil etc. find position, draw DR course, correct for leeway, current, demonstrate ability to truly navigate) will keep a lot of weirdo's in the dirt imho. I was entering the Port Everglades inlet during a weekend once and 99% of the boats in that chaos would be entered and confiscated in Holland, with the crew put in jail. It had nothing to do with boating; this was criminal behaviour. These fellows with golden chains around every body part would not pass that exam; they would be too drunk and stoned.

cheers,
Nick.

[Seahunter]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

If you want to see where government boating licenses will end up, just look what has happened to radio licensing--You now need a restricted operators license to operate a marine SSB. It requires no theory or practical testing, but costs $60. Does that license make you a better operator or protect the public??

Good point, excepting that for licensing to work a required skill set must be learned and passed by exam. The number of voices here that are against knowledge being passed down to newbies and making them pay their way towards licensing is disturbing. My guess is that many of the armchair naysayers wouldn't or couldn't pass a basic boating exam. Bemoaning the cost of examination as government interference is ludicrous as recreational boating is the only non-licensed marine activity not covered by licensing. Perhaps we should do away with all forms of auto, airplane and all marine licensing?
Boating isn't black magic, but it does require more of a skill set than driving a car or truck that do by the by require licensing. I's just common sense safety wise to ensure sufficient accreditation for coastal navigation, rules of the road, and the employment of basic electronic like radar, GPS and VHF radios. A higher level of skill and knowledge on the water may prevent that Pan or Mayday which actually do come with a high price tag each and every time the CG fire up that helo, risking their lives to save one of ours.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Seahunter

Good point, excepting that for licensing to work a required skill set must be learned and passed by exam. The number of voices here that are against knowledge being passed down to newbies and making them pay their way towards licensing is disturbing. My guess is that many of the armchair naysayers wouldn't or couldn't pass a basic boating exam. Bemoaning the cost of examination as government interference is ludicrous as recreational boating is the only non-licensed marine activity not covered by licensing. Perhaps we should do away with all forms of auto, airplane and all marine licensing?
Boating isn't black magic, but it does require more of a skill set than driving a car or truck that do by the by require licensing. I's just common sense safety wise to ensure sufficient accreditation for coastal navigation, rules of the road, and the employment of basic electronic like radar, GPS and VHF radios. A higher level of skill and knowledge on the water may prevent that Pan or Mayday which actually do come with a high price tag each and every time the CG fire up that helo, risking their lives to save one of ours.

Well my 1st experience solo boating was age 5 on a car tyre I used to ride down the storm drains in the resdential area during monsoons... awesome.. learnt a lot about balance fending off etc..
did not get me any certificates though..
Then later in the 'Royal Navy' I learnt seamanship and how to sail on Montague whalers.. splice wire and rope.. among other things..
That did not get me any certificates either... the Navy don't issue any...
So I guess that made me ineligible to buy my first boat in the 80's...
no certificate..
and not prepared to pay someone to tell me I knew what I was doing...
But...
When I decided to go foreign... I took the test ..
Why... because like Passports, Visa's etc...
you need one when you go foreign..
Displays a aura of 'Responsibility..'