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Old 30-07-2017, 04:12   #91
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

NAVIONICS:


C-MAP :


RASTER:
https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=...NhqBbF3UkNeqYU
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Old 30-07-2017, 04:19   #92
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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RASTER:

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Old 30-07-2017, 07:37   #93
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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You've been sitting on front of your desktop too long. Google Earth out in the middle of the pacific? I doubt the reef had a cell tower.
You can use Google Earth offline if you have "saved" the area when you were online.
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Old 30-07-2017, 07:46   #94
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

benkay -- thanks for posting those three charts. I think what Navionics is guilty of is . . . ambiguous color-coding. The shade of blue used to delineate the reef area doesn't convey any sense of danger, and no depths are listed numerically. And in some places (like farther north near Avamoa Pass and Avapehi Pass) that same blue seems to be used where there are navigable depths. The other charts do a much better job of visually conveying that there's a reef.
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Old 30-07-2017, 08:20   #95
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Cormorant I agree, was surprised by the difference that the CMAP image provided. From a human factors perspective certainly significant. It hasn't been long since this unfortunate accident and sadly some in the community are quick to criticise and even confidently state the cause. There's a lot to be learnt here and of merit is the owners openess to share their disaster to the rest of us via their blog. I guess the crew of Vestas Wind lacked experience and seaman ship ,how did they ever get Insurance??
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Old 30-07-2017, 09:42   #96
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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What have Navionics got to with it? The Navionics chart image of the fringe reef, as shown earlier in a post together with GE image, show the fringe reef in the same position in both images, out by no more than a 100 m, if that. There is no 'hidden' reef. There is no 'uncharted' reef. Let's stop with the American 'sue the bastards' mentality.

It is awful for the family, and all sympathies to them.

But it was, given the information so far, a navigation mistake compounded by a seamanship mistake. A navigation mistake for setting a waypoint so close to the island and reef. Regardless of whether they were heading for Fare or Uturoa, the waypoint should have been a minimum of 2 or 3 nm south of the fringe reef. There's no point in cutting the corner as we can only assume they were not intending to make a night entry into Fare or Uturoa? In addition, the reef-set current close to a fringe reef is strong and can easily pull you in sideways into the surf line. Stay well clear!

The seamanship mistake is for not having a better lookout when so close to the island. The chart plotter would have shown them to be close to the island and requiring extra attention. I find it hard to believe that an alert watch keeper would not have seen if not heard the surf. Did they have radar? That would have shown distance to the island if not the surf line and would have made it obvious that they were too close.

I'm sorry, but this accident is on them. Buying boats and crossing oceans does not provide training in seamanship - a fact recognised by their insurance company.

Sure as hell provides a kick up the ass to up my game and not be complacent.
I have never done an ocean passage or overnight for that matter but in watching a lot of vlogs on YouTube it seems everyone on nightwatch has headphones in for music or even movies. I get that it can't be taxing/boring I couldn't imagine wearing anything. I would want to hear all things around me. Am I wrong?
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Old 30-07-2017, 10:00   #97
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Sorry for the family but it sounds like every other grounding incident.

After long passages, people start thinking well I've done it all and I'm competent and let their guard down. Yes Navionics method of showing depth change is perhaps unusual in the industry, but 1) the user should become familiarized with it, 2) shouldn't approach an island at the zoom levels shown in the screen shot, 3) passage planning - why approach at night? Sounds like the rest of the family were barely involved and preparing for dinner or what not while the skipper was helming at full speed.

I vaguely remember that island - I bet you can see where the boat is reefed from the beach.

This isn't one of those instances where there's a marked safe approach, the user followed it and grounded right into an unmarked reef. More like an entire sand bank/reef system that's marked on all charts, the user either didn't zoom in at the appropriate level or had a wrong approach strategy and drove the boat onto the bank.


Edit - reading some comments. I'm not in the cartography industry, but expecting charts to allow you to drive blind safely into port/bay that isn't frequented by large freighters just isn't realistic.

Piloting a boat is like driving a car. Just because the GPS tells you to turn left into the no-longer there road/bridge doesn't mean you suspend the overriding rules of how to drive a car.

There's no road - stop.
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Old 30-07-2017, 10:13   #98
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Originally Posted by Dave_S View Post
Why don't the navigation software developers use the millions of boats out there to improve the product. If the software recorded the travels and findings of the boats they were on then sent that back to the developer when possible and a few comparisons made with others to ensure the info wasn't from one dodgy boat then we would have better information. A bit of internet is cheap for more accurate info.
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Old 30-07-2017, 10:31   #99
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Sucks...too bad no insurance, but I know my insurance company will only sell me liability for our upcoming crossing next March. Its either go and take a chance or miss trip of a lifetime and regret forever. None of my friends that left this spring to Polynesia have hull insurance either.

I can't seem to get onto their gofundme page...anyone have a working link?
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Old 30-07-2017, 10:55   #100
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Wouldn't liability insurance have covered the cost of dragging the boat off the reef and sinking it?
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Old 30-07-2017, 11:35   #101
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

I think it will.

btw a big shout out to svBeachflea for his help with the salvage etc. Greg has been helping out sailors without asking from when we met them in San Diego till he left La Cruz last March...so typical of him to pitch in.
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Old 30-07-2017, 11:46   #102
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

...blaming Navionics...!
how pathetic can one get?
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Old 30-07-2017, 12:00   #103
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Wouldn't liability insurance have covered the cost of dragging the boat off the reef and sinking it?
The insurance refused to carry on covering them.

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Old 30-07-2017, 12:21   #104
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Fxykty's analysis Is correct...and while it is a sad event it could easily have been a tragic event!

I find the insurance element interesting, are the insurance companies developing competence standards for Pacific crossings?

I know of 6 boats lost in the last 2 years in the Pacific, I had drunk beer with 3 of the boat owners. 4 of the 6 hit reefs.
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Old 30-07-2017, 13:08   #105
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Originally Posted by benkay View Post
NAVIONICS:




CMAP:



RASTER:


Those images clearly shows this is right on the fringing reef, which at the Southern tip of the Island, is farter offshore too. No one could claim the charts not to be accurate, right?

A couple of reflections, if Huahine was the destination, I cannot understand why they were attempting to round the southern tip of it, there's nothing there....and if en route for landfall farther west, you better leave 5-10 miles to any island. It's austral winter and next week the Billabong World Series Surf starts in Tehuaupoo, Tahiti. What's this got to do with it? It's the season for rather big swells from southwest, pounding the west and south shores and refracting, creating nasty, bumpy cross-swells in the area they passed. It must have been a very uncomfortable ride, and then crash....

Compaered to the days when sextant, compass and log were the only aids to navigation, the percentage of boats coming to greef today is actually higher than back then. I've been teaching navigation for a couple decades, and "gps assisted groundings" is always a topic on meetings with colleagues.

During my 4+ years in FrPol, I know of 5 boats having significant damage or sunk from groundings. 4 were totally unnecessary and the fifth was reportedly a single hander who fell a sleep and ended up on the fringing reef, quite close to the world famous surfs pot in Tahiti. With unnecessary I mean due to overly- and even blind- faith in electronical aids to navigation. A simple good lookout would have saved a couple, instead the crew were staring at a screen or two, or blindly trusting the "gadgets" in pitch black night.

A peculiarity around here, is also that at night you can hardly see a single light on shore. Sometimes you can make out the silhouette of an island if it's backlit by moon or stars.

Prudence has always been a mariners best friend.

Salvaging and selling gear off the wreck should be a good idea. There is certainly a local market here with hundreds of sailboats owned locally, and then the charter fleet, mostly in Raiatea where as I understand Leopard is a common brand

As for the import tax, it is 16or 17% IIrC, but a vessel in transit imports free of duty, the import tax is for the local/locally owned fleet.

If the wonders would need some local information, please feel free to PM me.

I hope the unlucky family can still enjoy their stay at Huahine, a true gem of an island.


And at last, as a Nav teacher I am saddened to see that this thread quickly ended up as a debate of which gadget would be better or worse, instead of reflecting on prudence and safe margins. Unfortunately this points towards more and more accidents like this, not all of them end without loss of lives, that's something to consider.
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