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Old 29-07-2017, 09:55   #16
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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I thought I recognized the name of the boat. They buddy boated with the YouTube family "Sailing Zatara" from Panama to the Galapagos.
I thought I recognized their vessel name.
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Old 29-07-2017, 10:07   #17
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Its known that Navionics and most other charts of FrPoly are out by varying degrees. Many of these charts have been built on soundings and positions from the 1800's with rudimentary bathymetric equipment. Only in areas where commercial traffic is there the commercial incentive to have accurate bottom surveys completed.

We sailed Hauhine only a few months back, during the daytime, and found Navionics ok but there are errors.
Below is our track in one of the Tuamotu's passes where its out by 25-30m.
When a company sells a product that is known to be used for the preservation of lives and property, I think that their is a legal duty to use the most up to date technology and data to produce the product and prevent errors. If not, there should be legal liability. You cannot tell people to trust their lives to incomplete data and guesswork. That is irresponsible, unethical, and hopefully illegal.
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Old 29-07-2017, 10:24   #18
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

I suppose that reefs, being living things, also grow over time beyond their last charted lateral extents and depths?
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Old 29-07-2017, 10:31   #19
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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This part is a real heartbreaker:

"Our insurance had dropped us in Galapagos even though we had 12000 nautical miles of sailing experience, saying we didn’t have enough experience to make the 3000 nm journey from Galapagos to Marquesas."
Not funny at all, but it looks as if the insurance underwriters were close to being correct. Any of you Navonics chart users looked to see if there are disclaimers about liability?
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Old 29-07-2017, 10:33   #20
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Ironically they say they are not to be used for navigational purposes and have massive disclaimers. I was almost caught out on an overnight passage from Cartagena to the new marina, Marina De Puerto Velero, just south of Barranqillia, the headland goes many 100 metres south of the peninsula than on the charts. All these magic gadgets are aids not The Bible. Whilst I wouldnt wish to be without them, they beat astro navigation and sextants........most of the time!
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Old 29-07-2017, 11:08   #21
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Ironically they say they are not to be used for navigational purposes and have massive disclaimers. I was almost caught out on an overnight passage from Cartagena to the new marina, Marina De Puerto Velero, just south of Barranqillia, the headland goes many 100 metres south of the peninsula than on the charts. All these magic gadgets are aids not The Bible. Whilst I wouldnt wish to be without them, they beat astro navigation and sextants........most of the time!
They can disclaim whatever they want, but I suspect that the courts will see through their nonsense and realize that Navionics knew or ought to know that navigation is exactly what they will be used for. Ka-ching.
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Old 29-07-2017, 11:14   #22
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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With both engines on I'm sure he didn't even hear the waves breaking. Did u Read the part where she said they were in 18 feet of water and then it suddenly went to zero and they were doing 9 kn with both engines on in the jib up? Hopefully we will get a further accounting from the skipper of the boat so we can see what he was thinking ..
Sorry to hear about the accident. But 9 knots in 18 feet of water, among reefs? At night?
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Old 29-07-2017, 11:25   #23
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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When a company sells a product that is known to be used for the preservation of lives and property, I think that their is a legal duty to use the most up to date technology and data to produce the product and prevent errors. If not, there should be legal liability. You cannot tell people to trust their lives to incomplete data and guesswork. That is irresponsible, unethical, and hopefully illegal.


Foremost it is the skipper primarily responsibility for navigation under international law (IMO, colregs). Further, Navionics and other cartography suppliers have disclaimers for such liabilities and responsibility just in case one didnt understand international rules.
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Old 29-07-2017, 11:32   #24
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Sorry to hear about the accident. But 9 knots in 18 feet of water, among reefs? At night?
That was 180', not 18.
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Old 29-07-2017, 11:38   #25
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Foremost it is the skipper primarily responsibility for navigation under international law (IMO, colregs). Further, Navionics and other cartography suppliers have disclaimers for such liabilities and responsibility just in case one didn't understand international rules.
Yes, the skipper is ultimately responsible. However disclaimers may not absolve the provider of inaccurate navigation information if correct info is available.

I would really like to see this go to court.
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Old 29-07-2017, 12:05   #26
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Moorea to Huahine is about 80 miles, this too far to do as a day trip unless you sail a planing racer. It's best done by leaving late afternoon to arrive a few hours after sunrise the following day. The French charts are very good, and accurate, but the GPS coordinates are off in some places with anything from 100 meters to a mile or more( rare, and only to my knowledge inthe Tuamotus)

We have spent the last four years in FraPol, a cruising paradise for sure.

As for Navionics, or any chart provider, charts are an "aid to navigation" among others, the navigation itself is done by the navigator, who is always a human being, as of yet I am not aware of AI piloted pe,a sure craft.

I am gutted for these people and their significant loss,but glad they came out of it unscathed physically at least. Again sailing close - apparently very close, as 180'- to a fringing reef is akin to driving your car without headlight throttle down on a highway.

Sorry, but total madness.

Hopefully, some people may read this and take warning. Too many people trust their instruments aka electronically gizmos blindly.


Keep in mind that the depth just outside a fringing reef, can come up from thousands of feet to "crash bang" quicker than I took me to type it.

At night, better leave the island a wide berth, 5-10 miles, possibly heave to or lie a hull on the leeward side at least 6-10 miles off, to wait for daylight.

We've done this trip several times, and would still not even think about entering a pass at night, unless someone's life would depend on it of course.

Sorry for bringing bad news, but I am just saying it the way it is!
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Old 29-07-2017, 12:12   #27
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Yes, the skipper is ultimately responsible. However disclaimers may not absolve the provider of inaccurate navigation information if correct info is available.

I would really like to see this go to court.
In many parts of the world you have two choices with charts: use the charts available or don't. In the Pacific there are thousands of reefs that are either not on a chart or are misplaced. As a navigator it is your responsibility to determine what level of accuracy and trust to put in the chart you are using.

That said, we found the up to date CMap charts very good in French Polynesia. The passage they were making is an awkward distance. It is just a little too long to make it in good light. Yet you always have that desire to avoid yet another overnight sail. We did the same passage as an overnighter so as to arrive with decent light. With good light reefs are generally easy to spot. Let the sun get low in the sky and they can be impossible to see.
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Old 29-07-2017, 12:53   #28
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Does anyone cruising there use Google Earth -> KAP imagery to double-check things like this?
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Old 29-07-2017, 12:58   #29
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Does anyone cruising there use Google Earth -> KAP imagery to double-check things like this?
Sure, there are lots of Sat image files floating around. SasPlanet let's you look at multiple sources. Some areas are not covered or not covered well. North Minerva Reef shows up in detail on Google Earth, while South Minerva does not.
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Old 29-07-2017, 13:11   #30
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

On the chart plotters I've owned you have to press "I Agree" on the warning page to get to the chart page. I'm pretty sure at that point you are releasing the company of liability.
I can't imagine what the cost of charts would be if the companies were held liable. Can you imagine the amount of hours and money spent keeping all charts worldwide absolutely up to date? Seems like it would be an impossible task.
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