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Old 03-08-2017, 14:35   #226
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

The only time we came (too) close to a reef (at Aitutaki) I felt very stupid in the morning. On the plotter I could see the reef about 2 miles away. But with the morning sun I could simply see the reef and the palms ashore.

I felt very stupid. We did not sail, just waited for the daylight to enter the cut. But what seemed 100% safe on the plotter felt silly close by sight.

We were lucky and I hope I learned a lesson.

To see is to believe. Of sorts.

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Old 04-08-2017, 16:30   #227
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Wow...that interview is kind of awkward. The passage plan was to stay in the blue color. It's basically a cartoon of everything the electronic chart detractors assert without (thankfully) loss of life.
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Old 04-08-2017, 16:56   #228
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

A relevant quote I believe was said, or at least paraphrased below, by the late great Nathaniel Bowditch:

“A prudent navigator uses every means available to determine their position”.

Clearly relying just on Navionics, or any other single source of nav info, is not prudent.

A terrible loss for the family, but it appears, like many accidents, that it could have been avoided.

I feel much more comfortable with as many sources as possible...several electronic charts, paper charts, etc...especially in poorly charted waters and/or at night.

Ive seen many bare-ly-boaters put boats up on the reef in Belize and the San Blas following much the same procedures as these unfortunate folks.
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Old 04-08-2017, 17:10   #229
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
Wow...that interview is kind of awkward. The passage plan was to stay in the blue color. It's basically a cartoon of everything the electronic chart detractors assert without (thankfully) loss of life.


Maybe it's too soon, but he's persisting with the 'electronic chart was wrong' line of thinking. As long as he does that, he won't actually learn what he needs to so he doesn't make the same sort of mistakes in the future.

Don't get me wrong - I feel so sad for them. They were living their dream, and now they have to start over. At least future income doesn't seem like a problem for them.
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Old 04-08-2017, 18:11   #230
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

I can see how maybe he thought the blue was still safe water depth, I think they could have depicted shoaling better myself
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Old 05-08-2017, 00:39   #231
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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I can see how maybe he thought the blue was still safe water depth, I think they could have depicted shoaling better myself
+1

"Blue go through; Brown go round" springs to mind.

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Old 05-08-2017, 02:05   #232
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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I can see how maybe he thought the blue was still safe water depth, I think they could have depicted shoaling better myself
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:49   #233
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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I can see how maybe he thought the blue was still safe water depth, I think they could have depicted shoaling better myself
After "12,000 miles of experience", you would have thought they would have noted the colors used on the e-charts and committed them to memory.

And none of the "charts were stuffed" comments address the foolishness of any close approach to reefs in the dark. Even a half mile margin would have saved their boat,let alone the prudent two or more miles that I and several others have used in similar situations.

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Old 05-08-2017, 05:05   #234
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Cormorant I agree, was surprised by the difference that the CMAP image provided. From a human factors perspective certainly significant. It hasn't been long since this unfortunate accident and sadly some in the community are quick to criticise and even confidently state the cause. There's a lot to be learnt here and of merit is the owners openess to share their disaster to the rest of us via their blog. I guess the crew of Vestas Wind lacked experience and seaman ship ,how did they ever get Insurance??
Insurance for a Volvo Ocean Race? I don't think so
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:33   #235
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

The helmsman was an airline transport rated pilot. Pilots are taught from day one to trust their instruments. Instrument pilots, even more so. I suspect this training and background, either consciously or subconsciously, contributed to his error.

(I might point out that aviation charts are a great deal more reliable than many marine charts.)
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:52   #236
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

I keep thinking about this passage from their blog:

"When they asked us what happened and we told them that our chart did not show reef, they asked us if we had been using Navionic charts, and I said yes. He then shook his head and said that at least five boats end up on those reefs a year who were using Navionic charts. They walked me over to a large map on the wall and told me to point exactly to where Tanda Malaika was, and I did to the best of my knowledge. They then pointed to two places, our spot being one of them, that all the wrecks seem to happen...."

It doesn't seem like a fabrication, as most of the blog seems written in a gush of honest recollection of a terrible day. Though maybe the rescuer's remark was more along the lines of hyperbole to make a point. If even close to true, it indicates that many other boats have similarly misread the Navionics charts. Curious.

As someone has mentioned above, the chart colors are often user-changeable in Settings, and some displays seem to show dangerous shallows better than others. But since charts are basically just the visual display of quantitative information, Navionics might want to examine how this element of their charts is constructed, so as to avoid all possibility of ambiguity.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:59   #237
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Pilots are taught from day one to trust their instruments. Instrument pilots, even more so.


That is an interesting observation


I might point out that aviation charts are a great deal more reliable than many marine charts.

I am still pretty sure that there is no significant chart error here, when the chart is displayed as Navonics intended.


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If they had actually stayed 'in the blue', it would not have been the most prudent plan, but they would most likely not have hit the reef. In fact, they sailed into the green.

The thing we dont know, which I would very much like to know, is what model plotter did the boat have, and does it have a known problem displaying the navionics chart colors correctly? If so, the community should know about that immediately.

I might note/add one more item to my e-charting best practices post above - never ever put a waypoint on a bouy or end of jetty,point of land (or any other solid turn point). ALWAYS offset the way points a safe distance. I would not be totally surprised if he had put a way point on the edge of the reef, as his turn point (thinking he would just give it a little distance when he got there), but then later at night just sailed (right) to it.

..............
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:06   #238
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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..............


I think that your last point is a rather astute acknowledgment of human nature. When the time comes to alter course, will we remember that the waypoint we set is the very edge of the reef? Likely, but not certainly. Where safety margins around solid turning points are critical, why not build a safety margin into the setting of the waypoint itself? Regards.
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:46   #239
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Quite stunning the difference in how Navionics data is interpreted in the mobile app vs. in a browser. I can easily imagine that if a navigator used both options interchangeably, this could lead to the mistake.

Nothing wrong with Navionics though, probably a warning for everybody that having the same charts across different platforms (plotters, laptops, mobiles) does not guarantee uniform information. Quite the contrary perhaps.

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Old 05-08-2017, 09:38   #240
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

If I am driving along and my car's gps tells me to make a right turn, I don't think I can blame my GPS f I fail to actually establish that there is a road there first, before turning

Likewise, I would never navigate my boat at night close to a reef based on any GPS datum chart. Daylight and the mark 1 eyeball are your best reef navigation tool.
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