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Old 02-08-2017, 18:37   #211
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Tanda Malaika, Nice job. Kudos to you all. "Your place will never be with the cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat." Your place is in the Arena. I hope to join you there in a few months. Thanks for sharing.


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Old 02-08-2017, 23:00   #212
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Originally Posted by double u View Post
...our understanding of DR seems to differ...:
"...advancing that position based upon known or estimated speeds over elapsed time and course..."
but maybe you people don't have logs any more...
"...more old school sailors ended on the rocks...": restricted to "old-school methods" most of those "new-school"-"navigators" wouldn't get far!
No, it doesn't differ. You just can't see the fail on the plotter chart before there's something which should be visible on the screen but isn't.. and what there is on deep open water?
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Old 03-08-2017, 05:09   #213
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

I have a love hate relationship with my plotter. I love how easy it especially in our main cruising on chesapeake and east coast. But I hate that after 25 years of honing dead reckoning, taking sights, etc- how much my skills in that have likely deteriorated. My GPS went down a few months ago and I realized quickly that it took me sometime to reorient with paper and landmarks.

I think it's madness to rely solely on one e chart and GPS around dangerous stuff. I've run aground on chesapeake in "deep water" and admit I was cutting close on contour lines, but recognize on chesapeake that groundings are at worst inconvenient. Recently hit a buoy right before dawn (yellow can) on delaware bay that wasn't on the plotter. My initial reaction was indignation. Should have had more of a watch and radar watch for obstructions than relying on plotter.

So easy to make the mistake of over reliance. I've done it. This thread should be massive learning for all who read. My heart goes out to family.
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Old 03-08-2017, 05:29   #214
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Originally Posted by gatorsailor View Post
Tanda Malaika, Nice job. Kudos to you all. "Your place will never be with the cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat." Your place is in the Arena. I hope to join you there in a few months. Thanks for sharing.


With Deep Respect,
Me
...a very big surprise is the broad support that TM's "navigational procedures" enjoy in this thread. procedures that were 100% certain to lead to disaster - which they eventually did.
I prefer to be counted among the "cold & timid souls" that always gave reefs a wide berth at night & never "enjoyed victory nor defeat" like destroying one's boat while sitting down to dinner...
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Old 03-08-2017, 05:44   #215
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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I smell a healthy lawsuit coming, or a generous out of court settlement.

The French still use the guillotine, I think, and would welcome the Navionics executives for a visit.


A lawsuit?!? For what? So that in a courtroom navionics can say our charts are accurate, and the skipper of the boat can say I'm a bad navigator?!

Your desire to jump immediately to lawsuit without any facts is dismaying.
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Old 03-08-2017, 06:27   #216
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Not approving their nav procedures, just approving a good supportive family recovery.

Most can see some positives to be taken out of this experience.
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Old 03-08-2017, 08:26   #217
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

We started in the sextant and paper era, and ended firmly converted to the e-chart era. I personally think the latter is "safer" because you always know where you are . . . . But you do need to be aware of and cautious of a couple pitfalls (fewer than in the sextant days).

#1 you must realize the plotter is not truth. It is a semi accurate construct. Most importantly it does not show everything. The plotter is really seductive because it seems to show stuff so accurately, when in fact there is a hierarchy of truth and it is at the bottom: your eye balls, the radar, the ais, and then the plotter. You need to continuously gather first hand info from the first couple of these, and use the plotter to help put it all into context. Used that way the plotter is tremendously helpful. But if you navigate just staring at the plotter screen, you will inevitably come to a bad end.

#2 because of the plotter illusory accuracy you need to include several checks in your navigation practice. Zoom in and scan along your route. Leave "excessive" room to dangers. Most of the dangers will be very accurately charted, while a few are not. But even if they are accurate, you don't want to be really close because something else might go wrong and you now have no margin. Have/use two e-chart/plotter sources if possible (like plotter and iPad), redundancy is always good and two different pictures reminds you they are just constructs and not an actual picture of reality.

#3 Perhaps most important always cross check as much as you can (is the depth what it should be, is that headland on the bearing I think it should be, are those lights lined up as they should be, etc) and if ANYTHING does not seem right then take a deep breath and figure it out or "go around". Do not keep on if something does not feel/look exactly like it should, no matter how tired you are or how much you want to get the anchor down.

I remember once we were following a set of leading lights, but our heading was a few degrees off that marked on the chart. We turned around and hove to until morning . . . . When I discovered that one of the "leading lights" I was seening was the anchor light on a super yacht, and the actual official light was out. A friend's boat was wrecked there a couple weeks later.

#4 be humble and aware, fight over confidence, always leave good margin for both error and bad luck. In the case just above, probably none of us should have been making that night entry - but we were all "experienced" and it looked well marked and mostly free of hazards so we convinced ourselves it was ok. And if everything was perfect it probably was ok, but leaving zero margin for anything at all going wrong.

Net net, I personally am good with e-navigation, but it requires its own procedures and skill set. It is not "turn off brain, stare at screen, point and shoot"; not at all.
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Old 03-08-2017, 08:32   #218
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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The other possibility for this "navigational error" may be to do with the chart plotter and not the charts. We recently had our Raymarine E125 replaced under warranty and almost got into trouble a few days later when we discovered a very serious issue with the replacement unit. The boat curser had frozen in position and was not updating on the plotter despite the GPS Co-ordinates still updating. I only realised because I was navigating a reef entrance and what my eyes were seeing was not matching what the chart plotter was telling me. If I was offshore this error would be almost impossible to pick up without other features like AIS targets to reference. After discovering this fault we found it was happening randomly every other day and the only way to unfreeze and update the vessel position was to switch to another screen item like radar and then back to the plotter. Raymarine have been very quiet about this issue despite several emails from me, I recently sent the unit back and the issue is yet to be resolved. If this is what happened in this scenario I think there is absolutely a case for going after Raymarine, disclaimers or not the unit is not performing how it should. I was super angry when I first discovered this issue because it could so easily result in losing my boat in the dark.


Likely at least ten years ago, I was exporting an aircraft from US to Guatemala, no HF, just VHF so I was hours out of radio contact with anyone, somewhere in the middle of the Gulf I noticed that I was holding course very well, No autopilot, kept flying, after awhile I noticed the time to go hadn't changed so I tried pushing s button on the Garmin 396, nothing worked, it was frozen solid, couldn't even turn it off, had to take the battery out and put it back in.
I flew the rest of the way on my back up 296.
I still have that GPS today and have used it thousands of times since then, and it has never locked up again, but it had me worried when it did.

Do not trust that magic stuff, cause one day it will let you down when your most dependent on it.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:53   #219
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
We started in the sextant and paper era, and ended firmly converted to the e-chart era. I personally think the latter is "safer" because you always know where you are . . . . But you do need to be aware of and cautious of a couple pitfalls (fewer than in the sextant days).

#1 you must realize the plotter is not truth. It is a semi accurate construct. Most importantly it does not show everything. The plotter is really seductive because it seems to show stuff so accurately, when in fact there is a hierarchy of truth and it is at the bottom: your eye balls, the radar, the ais, and then the plotter. You need to continuously gather first hand info from the first couple of these, and use the plotter to help put it all into context. Used that way the plotter is tremendously helpful. But if you navigate just staring at the plotter screen, you will inevitably come to a bad end.

#2 because of the plotter illusory accuracy you need to include several checks in your navigation practice. Zoom in and scan along your route. Leave "excessive" room to dangers. Most of the dangers will be very accurately charted, while a few are not. But even if they are accurate, you don't want to be really close because something else might go wrong and you now have no margin. Have/use two e-chart/plotter sources if possible (like plotter and iPad), redundancy is always good and two different pictures reminds you they are just constructs and not an actual picture of reality.

#3 Perhaps most important always cross check as much as you can (is the depth what it should be, is that headland on the bearing I think it should be, are those lights lined up as they should be, etc) and if ANYTHING does not seem right then take a deep breath and figure it out or "go around". Do not keep on if something does not feel/look exactly like it should, no matter how tired you are or how much you want to get the anchor down.

I remember once we were following a set of leading lights, but our heading was a few degrees off that marked on the chart. We turned around and hove to until morning . . . . When I discovered that one of the "leading lights" I was seening was the anchor light on a super yacht, and the actual official light was out. A friend's boat was wrecked there a couple weeks later.

#4 be humble and aware, fight over confidence, always leave good margin for both error and bad luck. In the case just above, probably none of us should have been making that night entry - but we were all "experienced" and it looked well marked and mostly free of hazards so we convinced ourselves it was ok. And if everything was perfect it probably was ok, but leaving zero margin for anything at all going wrong.

Net net, I personally am good with e-navigation, but it requires its own procedures and skill set. It is not "turn off brain, stare at screen, point and shoot"; not at all.

Really great advice that represents best practice especially given the source. I hope this is shared widely. I may distill down and laminate on a card for any crew I bring on for passage making in future


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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Old 03-08-2017, 13:07   #220
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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I'd just use the chart to estimate depth. Key is to avoid confused wave conditions.
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Old 03-08-2017, 13:13   #221
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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I wouldn't choose to pass within 1/4nm of the southern tip of Huahine-reef in broad daylight & under perfect conditions - what would it be for?
Good point! There are better and safer ways to explore the reef surf!
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Old 03-08-2017, 14:35   #222
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

If you can see a dangerous lee shore on a clear day you are too close!

A little too conservative? But when my steering failed, at midnight, off a piece of Panamanian real estate called Punta Mala we dropped the sails and sat a night watch. At dawn we made coffee, ate breakfast and rigged the emergency steering in daylight. Since I had given Punta Mala a 15nm margin I still had over 8nm of sea room. The wide margin would have increased my three day journey by three hours! Cutting it tight would have turned a problem into a potential disaster.

In the Pacific I do not get nearer then 5nm to islands or reefs until I have full daylight!
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Old 03-08-2017, 14:51   #223
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

Thanks Evans

I really appreciate your advice about the magic plotters and other machines. It behoves us to ensure that the most important navigational device, the one that got the first mariners around the Pacific in the first place, the navigators brain and situational awareness, is never switched off.

I never blame a piece of gear for a misadventure. Everything that happens on my boat is my fault, everything. I am responsible for its installation, maintenance and proper use. I don't want to sail with anyone who doesn't think that way. We have the freedom at sea to do what we want, but also the freedom to make mistakes without anyone stopping us, so we have to stop ourselves from making the big and costly mistakes by being aware of our group think, tiredness, slothfulness and our desire to sometimes be somewhere else right now.

Every disaster story is a "there but for the grace of God go I" story for me. I have been as unseamanlike as the people in this case. The last time was when I went into a small inlet, at night, thinking that the nav lights were lit instead of anchoring out in the less protected bay and waiting till dawn. It turned out that the lights were on small boats (I am red green colour blind and can have trouble with greens and whites) and the lights were not lit. I got lost and steered onto a (thankfully) sandy bank (no radar). We gently bumped on the ground for a couple of hours whilst I kayaked around putting cyalume sticks on the nav markers so we could get up to somewhere safe. Dumb on so many points. Was there a good reason? Yes, my wife was feeling unwell and I was full of importance to get her somewhere flat and calm, and so I stressed her and could have put the boat on rocks instead of the sand.

All my own dumb, stupid fault. Am I nice guy? I think so. Would people have helped me if I put a hole in my boat? I hope so. Should they do the same as me and defend my seamanship? Hell no. I don't defend my dumb thoughts on that night. I was an idiot who put my boat at risk. I am pretty lucky I didn't hit some rock or coral. I wouldn't have lost my boat in the calmish waters but I could have given her a few good whacks. My boat relies on me to act in her best interests but I failed her that day. She on the other hand has never let me down.

Feeling humble still.

Phil
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Old 03-08-2017, 14:51   #224
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

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...a very big surprise is the broad support that TM's "navigational procedures" enjoy in this thread. procedures that were 100% certain to lead to disaster - which they eventually did.
I prefer to be counted among the "cold & timid souls" that always gave reefs a wide berth at night & never "enjoyed victory nor defeat" like destroying one's boat while sitting down to dinner...
I nor anyone else is broadly supporting TM's procedures. Clearly they made a mistake and their procedures were flawed. But I'm not going to sit here and pound my chest on doing anything bigger, better or wiser. What I am going to do is try to learn something from their mistake and hopefully help myself out in the future. One thing for sure though, had they stayed home they would have made zero mistakes. I salute their courage to try. They had a dream, they took a shot and it is what it is. I'll take my shot soon enough. If I don't make it because of a judgment error, than so be it. I'm taking my shot anyway and it will be what it will be. If I have the chance I hope to have the courage to share my mistakes too, in the hope of helping others. Peace.
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Old 03-08-2017, 15:02   #225
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Re: Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

I worked a lot with GPS in my job I retired from. One thing I learned is that while GPS is great at telling you where you really are, it is not so great at telling you where everything around you really is. It only knows where that stuff is from being told, and if it was told wrong.....
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