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Old 27-02-2014, 15:36   #31
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

Yeah, I've often left the halyard on and used the cunningham or something like that to keep some tension on it. Getting out of somewhere fast is where a small boat is great... anything under maybe 30 ft and a couple good pulls and the main is up, ditto for the headsail. My bigger boats, even with harken roller cars took a while to get that main up for sure.
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Old 27-02-2014, 15:39   #32
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
from anchor you want jib before main as jib is your STEERING sail.,.. you point with jib, not main.,. try picking up buoys both under jib alone and under main alone. count on steering with main alone, you will eat rock soup before being able to quickly get boat out of trouble., btdt. i learned.
May be so in your boat, Zee, but certainly not so in all boats. None of the boats that I have owned would work off their anchors under jib alone. On our current Insatiable, a fractional rig sloop, sailing off the anchor with the jib would be unsuccessful... could never get her bow up into the wind as you came to the end of the rode... but it works well under main alone.

I suspect that this is true in most boats of modern design. (And yes, we are ALL fools for not having ketches designed by Bill G!) (Maybe)

Cheers,

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Old 27-02-2014, 16:09   #33
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

Anchored in Marsh Harbor Bahamas July 1996. Nowhere else to go as Hurricane Bertha approached. Set 2 Anchors and spent 12 plus hours in the cockpit running the engine. Wind speed 100 mph plus.When there is no escape you Hunker down. Had a great after hurricane party.
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Old 27-02-2014, 16:14   #34
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

Hmm

Sailing off what has turned into a surf beach (as in Dockhead's sobering account) - hasn't worked for me and I hope never to have to try it again. The waves will be too close together for any sailing yacht other than a surf cat to recover from the previous breaker before having to climb the next.

I can think of only two things which can work here:

A big engine with a big prop (and clean diesel, etc etc)

or failing that, a bunch of things you are unlikely to have or to be able to arrange: a decent anchor set well outside the break on a lo-o-o-ong warp, a full-closure fairlead at the bow, and a VERY experienced and skilful deckhand, preferably with commercial fishing experience, and a grunty powered capstan (or a snubbing winch and about ten people!)

Once outside the break, then you can make sail and slip the anchor. (Forget trying to retrieve it, it will be half way to Timbuctoo)

I have seen more than once a yacht lying to an anchor in a big surf break, being pulled through the tops of the waves for hours -- and surviving to fight another day.

It's frightening, and the forces are high, but (presumably because of the fine bows of a modern sailing hull, and because on a long warp, you will stay dead square-on) not beyond the aspirations of heavy, well mounted gear on a suitably reinforced foredeck.

Chafe is what makes it untenable at anchor, but that's not an issue if you're warping out.

(ON EDIT) It will have to be a mixed rode, so you're on rope until outside the break, unless you have a custom hydraulic windlass with driveback capability and crossline relief (effectively making it self-snubbing, even during retrieval of chain)
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Old 27-02-2014, 16:18   #35
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
from anchor you want jib before main as jib is your STEERING sail.,.. you point with jib, not main.,. try picking up buoys both under jib alone and under main alone. count on steering with main alone, you will eat rock soup before being able to quickly get boat out of trouble., btdt. i learned.
I guess I respectfully disagree. The premise of this thread is you are in a bay and being blown ashore. My mode is to motor with the main up (boat punches thru waves and chop a lot better) until moving, then if I can clear the bay tacking put the headsail up.
If I'm close to the beach and put the headsail up without good way on, I'm likely to be pointing toward the beach soon!
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Old 27-02-2014, 16:20   #36
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

My experience with modern mono hulls is that without a riding sail they tend to sail back and forth with high snatch loads on the anchor. I would not count on your boat to lie nicely head to wind in a good blow.
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Old 27-02-2014, 16:21   #37
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

Turn the engine on , get the f out. Get a sail up as you move out.

Keep the anchor ready to redeploy


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Old 27-02-2014, 16:28   #38
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

Ann raises the important point about ensuring the boat falls off on the desired tack.

Here's a failsafe method I use (particularly, but not solely, when solo):

Hoist the main and leave it flapping, shorten in the chain to 'up&down', ready to break out.

Lash helm amidships, and haul the mainboom RIGHT out to the shrouds with the preventer or vang-to-rail. (The method is not quite so reliable with heavily swept spreaders)

Often this will break out the anchor, and the boat will unconditionally pay off with the main to leeward. Much more reliable than backing the jib, which is vulnerable to a sudden header.

If it doesn't break out, go the bow and break it out. If searoom is scarce, slacken the preventer and come hard on the wind before retrieving the remaining chain, if not, the boat will sail itself on a beam reach for as long as you need.
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Old 27-02-2014, 16:33   #39
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

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My experience with modern mono hulls is that without a riding sail they tend to sail back and forth with high snatch loads on the anchor. I would not count on your boat to lie nicely head to wind in a good blow.
If that's a comment to my post, it's not about head to wind, it's about head to breaking swell. If you are lying to a long rode in breaking surf, 'sailing back and forth' and snatching is not a big issue. The load comes onto the rode quickly but progressively because the gradient changes ahead of the crest. The peak loads are very high, and have nothing much to do with the wind. And a long rode will generally store enough energy to keep 'retrieving' the boat sufficiently in the troughs to prevent it from going side-on from the undertow.

If you're warping out, there's even less problem directionally, because it's when the tension in the rode reduces that a yacht lying to a warp will bear off and make headway, 'sailing' back or forth.
But when warping, that's when you retrieve flat out, and that will keep your head uphill.
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Old 27-02-2014, 16:43   #40
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

People have talked about sailing pit the anchor on a lee shore. Sure if there's time and of sea room , knock yourself out.

The key however is to gain searoom in the most direct way possible. Hence if at all possible start the engine , retrieve the anchor and exit by the most direct , preferably preplanned route.

If it's blowing hard you need searoom
To raise a mainsail, especially at night. On typical modern under crewed yachts. Use the engine to gain such room. . If you are in or near the surf then messing with a recalcitrant mainsail or risking a Jamup in this stitustion could be fatal. Once you have. Some way on raise the main so that you have alternative.s

Tacking out of an anchorage with other boats and other unknown hazards is a last resort type of thing

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Old 27-02-2014, 17:18   #41
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

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Had that happen to us at Cape Bowling Green. Yep, we upped anchor and left. If the wind is enough to worry you, you're not going to sleep, so no point staying.
Cape Boweling (or is it Howling) Green is ALWAYS windy although the holding is usually good but the waves can become quite high if the wind comes from the north. One of my least favourite anchorages on the Queensland coast and there are CROCS so don'[t go for a swim.
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Old 27-02-2014, 21:49   #42
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

So that's when you want a boat that really sails and powers to weather and will bust through a nasty close steep chop. Many years ago I read a article about a situation where a mess of boat on west coast where caught in an unexpected wind shift and all but one got out of the bay without grounding. The boat that got out was a Cal 40 and it sailed out(motor may have been running) those motor and sail boats who tried motor alone were grounded. Most cruisers look for comfort as a prime selector for a boat and those boats are usually at a disadvantage in this trapped in a bay situation. When it comes to sail boats I never disregard windward sailing ability. My choice for trapped in a bay would be a J/46 or a similar ocean cruiser with a strong windward racing history comfortable enough holds lots of beer and will sail well..
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:56   #43
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

I was in big bay in the island of santo, and out of nowhere the north wind came in on me. When it was blowing only 25 knots, within 20 minutes, it went from flat water to very short steep swell so the boat was burying the bow, about 2-3 meters of swell (I knew this meant the wind would increase much more)

I had to pull anchor, but even pulling on the slack (because of the swells) it was difficult to lock the chain quickly because of the short period and avoid losing fingers, the tension was pretty huge. By now the wind was above 30 knots. I was forced to raise the mainsail before pulling anchor, as it sailed the boat over the anchor releasing the tension, and allowed me to raise it.

Next I put the 3rd reef and small headsail, and just 2 minutes after getting anchor up and tacking away from land, the squall hit, 50 knots.. I could not see anything because of the spray, but I had too much sail up. I was heeling 60 degrees, and scooping water into the cockpit from the side because of this angle and the steep swells. I managed to heave-to and fortunately the wind backed down to only 30 knots or so which is much better to beat against.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:33   #44
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

boat alexandra: that's a sobering account. I bet you were relieved to get out of there!

One thing that occurs to me is the value of a chain pawl in a situation like that.

I sail occasionally on a small boat with 20m of 3/8" chain (the remainder being 5/16") and a 25lb (or thereabouts) anchor, and because of a very effective chain pawl on the bow roller, it's possible to pull the chain in, safely, even when the bows are going under

What's more, objectively it's doable with less actual effort than in flat water. This is because you retrieve as the bow is dropping, and can safely carry on right until it starts to rise. The pawl will reliably hold the load from the instant the chain tries to run out.

Pawls also permit tapering the chain size, so the bit near the anchor can be heavy, where it does some good.

I was thinking about this chain pawl issue just the other day, because I was writing in another thread about a situation on this same sailboat where I got swept out of the channel while entering a river bar, and realised on feeling the first 'touch' that she was right on the point of being unable to get her bow around and pointing offshore. What tends to happen is that the boat heels inshore every time the keel touches, and each swell carries her sideways towards the beach, making the problem worse.

The chain pawl on this boat doubles as a shank hold-down for the anchor (if anyone's interested I could post a sketch) so although I was on my own, I was able to drop the anchor in less time than it took for the next swell to arrive after the first 'touch'.

I was still heading inshore at this point, knowing that as soon as the anchor bit, it would automatically wrench the boat around in a 180 deg turn, so after flaking down about 30m of chain, I went back to the cockpit, set the autopilot for the reciprocal course, and left the motor running strongly. The little tillerpilot is slow to go hard over (which in this case was a blessing, because it meant I didn't need to wait until the chain had all run out to change the set heading)

I went back towards the bow, hanging onto the mast on the way as the boat did its bootlegger turn, and then, thanks to the chain pawl, was able to retrieve the anchor (hands like a blur) as we motored past it and climbed over the first swell, escaping back out to sea.

I don't know how I would have got on, had the boat and the gear been much bigger.
A windlass would not recover the chain anything like fast enough for this rather unconventional variation on the age-old 'club hauling': only a scared man can do that.

If I had to do it on a bigger boat, I'd just let the chain run right out, and cut the pendant/tether (which needs to be long enough to emerge from the chain locker, and strong yet elastic, so as not to pull the eyebolt out of the clench plate in the back of the locker.)

You can always go back and get your anchor later (punch the MoB button on your GPS! things will look very different at a different stage of the tide...), but it's quite another thing to have to go back and get your boat.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:35   #45
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Re: Lee shore... What to do...

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... Many years ago I read a article about a situation where a mess of boat on west coast where caught in an unexpected wind shift and all but one got out of the bay without grounding. The boat that got out was a Cal 40 and it sailed out(motor may have been running) those motor and sail boats who tried motor alone were grounded. ....
I think that same story has just be retold on this same forum yesterday or today, by Lin Pardey in one or other of the 'engineless' threads. I could be wrong, but it sounds like the same one.
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