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Old 08-03-2015, 10:51   #91
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Re: Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Knot 2:
Is this a bowline or sheetbend?

Not a trick question, there is one of each in these two photographs

The reason they behave differently is that they are loaded differently.
Knots #1 and #2 might be a sheet bends. Neither is a bowline.
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Old 08-03-2015, 12:33   #92
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Re: Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Knot 2:
Is this a bowline or sheetbend?

Not a trick question, there is one of each in these two photographs

The reason they behave differently is that they are loaded differently.
Very interesting when compared like this. I'd say #1 is the bowline and #2 is the sheet bend.

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Old 08-03-2015, 12:48   #93
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Re: Knots

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Knot 2:
Is this a bowline or sheetbend?

Not a trick question, there is one of each in these two photographs

The reason they behave differently is that they are loaded differently.
Okay, I see. If the line to the right is the standing part, it could be a bowline. Not enough information to tell.
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Old 08-03-2015, 13:45   #94
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Re: Knots

I deleted my last as , having only just slammed down my first caffeine fix of the day, I had my easts and wests muddled (to put it mildly )

In both cases the east and west bound bits of rope are taking load. In the case of the bowline the north bound bit is also loaded but it is still jammed by the east going bit... I don't see any material effect on how it behaves once firmed up and under load.

I reckon whoever tied those two is left handed...
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Old 08-03-2015, 13:50   #95
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Re: Knots

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Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post
Very interesting when compared like this. I'd say #1 is the bowline and #2 is the sheet bend.

Correct, but there wasn't enough information to tell (the slight curve at the top of the 'north bound' line in the first photo perhaps suggested it went on to curve as it became part of the loop, but that could have been a red herring ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by ryon View Post
Okay, I see. If the line to the right is the standing part, it could be a bowline. Not enough information to tell.
Yes, the line to the right is the standing part in both cases.

I thought it was an interesting photo - shows how the structure is absolutely identical for the two. The two knots behave differently only because the load is applied differently.

This was the full photo that I cropped to produce the above two images. If the red loop is flipped over it is easier to see that this is in fact a bow line (the way it is presented the rabbit is going into the hole, not coming out initially).

I can flip it over and photograph the image if this isn't clear to anyone.

Knots are fascinating . Break down the structure and features reproduce in a most unlikely way - the Zeppelin bend for example (along with the Alpine Butterfly, Hunter and Ashley, all 4 being of the same family) is just composed of two intertwined overhands. Amazing they behave as they do when combined!!!
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Old 08-03-2015, 13:58   #96
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Re: Knots

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
I deleted my last as , having only just slammed down my first caffeine fix of the day, I had my easts and wests muddled (to put it mildly )

In both cases the east and west bound bits of rope are taking load. In the case of the bowline the north bound bit is also loaded but it is still jammed by the east going bit... I don't see any material effect on how it behaves once firmed up and under load.

I reckon whoever tied those two is left handed...
LOL, yes, that is probably the way a left handed person would want to tie a bow line, but just to confuse things it is NOT a Left Handed Bowline (the tail in a left handed bowline ends up on the outside of the loop, not the inside).

The sheet bend is just how it is most commonly presented.

The two do behave differently under load though - it does make a big difference whether or not load is put on the "tail".

Take for example the Alpine Butterfly loop. It behaves very differently (jams appallingly) if tension is put on the loop and the standing part (as in an end line loop) as compared to the two standing parts (leaving a midline loop with no tension on it).
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Old 08-03-2015, 14:03   #97
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Re: Knots

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Correct, but there wasn't enough information to tell (the slight curve at the top of the 'north bound' line in the first photo perhaps suggested it went on to curve as it became part of the loop, but that could have been a red herring ).
!!!
That's exactly what I based my answer on. Had the photos been cropped differently there's no way I could have told the difference.
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Old 08-03-2015, 14:06   #98
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Re: Knots

Alpine Butterfly Bend | How to tie the Alpine Butterfly Bend | Climbing Knots

I compared this to the Zeppelin bed and preferred it.

I just added a couple of half hitches.

Your boat, your choice.
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Old 08-03-2015, 14:14   #99
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Re: Knots

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Alpine Butterfly Bend | How to tie the Alpine Butterfly Bend | Climbing Knots

I compared this to the Zeppelin bed and preferred it.

I just added a couple of half hitches.

Your boat, your choice.
They are very close and each have their fan club (ask Salty Monkey ). Both belong to the same "family".

Both are infinitely superior to the sheet bend or double sheet bend when it comes joining two lines together.

The Alpine Butterfly can be dressed SIX different ways though. I have seen no studies done to check out which is superior (they will not all behave the same way and some will have more of a tendency to jam).

Rather than stuffing around with dressing the bend, the Zeppelin just needs a good yank, making it a superior choice in my opinion .

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Old 08-03-2015, 14:16   #100
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Re: Knots

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That's exactly what I based my answer on. Had the photos been cropped differently there's no way I could have told the difference.
I was dashing off to have lunch when I snapped that photo. I should have noted that slight curve and cropped it better to be sneakier (or better still given the blue tail a misleading little kink ).

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Old 08-03-2015, 15:46   #101
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Re: Knots

A good demonstration of misdirection, magic, and knot structure, Lass!

I do have to quibble with you on a couple of points: One, the standing portion, or line to be joined for the sheet bend would be the one on the left, not the right as you say. This would also be the larger one in case of dissimilar sizes. This is what confused me first time around, I assumed that they were both standing from the left. It doesn't make any difference once loaded, but it certainly does while firming up. Second, the tail of a proper bowline is always inside the loop, regardless of handedness.

Add the fisherman's knot to your list of intertwined overhands. This knot is actually a bend, but it is completely different from the fisherman's bend, which is actually a hitch.

And those who don't recognize the Zeppelin bend may know it instead by it's proponent's name, the Rosendahl bend.
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Old 08-03-2015, 18:49   #102
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Re: Knots

Try as much as I can I cannot tie a bowline like the one shown by SWL.... except with a considerable amount of two handed effort and faffing around... ie forming the eye with two hands,
I'm right handed.... I lay the standing part across the palm of my left hand, take the tail in my right and 'roll' it into the standing part... it comes out looking like this Bowline Knot | How to tie a Bowline Knot | Boating Knots
I suppose it could be called one handed as the left only stops the rope falling in the bilge
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Old 08-03-2015, 19:10   #103
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Re: Knots

You can also 'pre-tie' one of the ends of a line with a twist of one hand then all you have to do is stick the other end through the loop, pull and you have a bowline. Since I can't explain it any better than that I can't google it to find pictures. It was something I learned to do with a munter hitch when climbing and was surprised there was a variation for a bowline.
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Old 08-03-2015, 22:04   #104
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Re: Knots

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Originally Posted by ryon View Post
A good demonstration of misdirection, magic, and knot structure, Lass!
Thanks .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryon View Post
I do have to quibble with you on a couple of points: One, the standing portion, or line to be joined for the sheet bend would be the one on the left, not the right as you say. This would also be the larger one in case of dissimilar sizes. This is what confused me first time around, I assumed that they were both standing from the left. It doesn't make any difference once loaded, but it certainly does while firming up.
For any bend there are TWO standing portions and two tails. So it is correct to refer to the line on the right of both photos as the standing portion .

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Second, the tail of a proper bowline is always inside the loop, regardless of handedness.
I agree. I did state that a bowline tied by a left handed person is NOT a Left Handed Bowline. The Left Handed Bowline (also called a Cowboy Bowline) has the tail on the outside.

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Originally Posted by ryon View Post
Add the fisherman's knot to your list of intertwined overhands. This knot is actually a bend, but it is completely different from the fisherman's bend, which is actually a hitch.
Yep, the Fisherman's is a lovely knot. Another of my favourites (I have a few ), but it needs cutting off if high load is put on. I used a Double Fishermans most commonly on a Prusik loop to attach snubber to chain before we started using soft shackles.
The "family of four" I described earlier is specifically two simple overhands (nothing more), intertwined in some way to produce the four variations.

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And those who don't recognise the Zeppelin bend may know it instead by it's proponent's name, the Rosendahl bend.
Charles Rosendahl served on and commanded various airships during his long career. The tale is that he insisted airships be moored using this knot, but Grogs states this is unlikely. Makes a nice story though .
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Old 08-03-2015, 22:09   #105
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Re: Knots

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Try as much as I can I cannot tie a bowline like the one shown by SWL.... except with a considerable amount of two handed effort and faffing around... ie forming the eye with two hands,
Bowlines are tied from anyone of four distinct directions - with the standing part of the line away from you and the loop passing clockwise or anticlockwise, or with the standing part of the line towards you and the loop passing clockwise or anticlockwise. You could be side on also as in the earlier photos, but it is easy then to twist a little and tie it in one of the four ways. After several weird pretzel like manoeuvres trying to get bowlines tied in the one direction I was familiar with when the lines were passing other directions, I have ingrained all four in my muscle memory .

Below are the four "directions" a bowline may commonly need to be tied. The two reds are identical, as are the two blues. The reds are mirror images of the blue.

The photo I presented earlier is the first blue version below, but flipped over and rotated clockwise 90 :
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