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Old 02-02-2014, 17:41   #31
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Re: Knot Booklet

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Originally Posted by 75RR View Post
1.) I will start with your comments on the Midshipman's hitch vs Rolling hitch.

I have found that Ashley’s comments generate some confusion, not least in myself, and have tried to simplify them a bit.

My head starts to hurt after my third reading on what he has to say on numbers # 1728, 1729, 1730, 1734 and 1735.
Reading the interpretations of his explanations in other Knot Books, does little to help.

I have called Midshipman’s Hitch when the second turn lies over the shoulder of the first – whether it is tied to a spar, another rope or to itself.
Similarly, I have called Rolling Hitch when the second turn follows the first, no matter what it is tied to.

If this seems an oversimplification, that is because it is – yet the reader does go away with a clear idea of which is which, and able to tie which ever of the two hitches seems appropriate in a given situation.
My head hurts doing a bit more reading too. To add to the confusion, some internet sites (incorrectly I think) refer to a Midshipman's as the one you have shown as Rolling in your diagram!

There are definitely two forms of Rolling hitches and the Rolling hitch used in your Midshipman's diagram is the once most commonly known as a plain 'Rolling hitch' in current usage, whether it is used around a pole, another line, or around itself to form a loop. It is the one shown in the photos below.

For example it is frequently stated that a rolling hitch is the best quick way to take the load off a line when it is jammed in a winch. The rolling hitch referred to is not the one in your diagram.

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2.) Good point on not having ABoK # 1010 as part of the heading.
Makes that section much clearer .

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Originally Posted by 75RR View Post
3.) Your third point, re “Fig. 18 is a little more complicated; and in truth, Fig. 19 is easier to tie and superior to it.”

Refers to the EBSB +Y Bowline (Fig 18 in the previous edition, now Fig.21) and Fig. 19 refers to Lee’s Locked, (now Fig. 22 in the new edition)
Oh, that makes much more sense now! I was looking at the new edition and the figure numbers there.

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As to whether the 1010 is superior to the 1034 ½ is debatable, I believe Ashley was a bit prejudiced against it.
He may have been. I have never been game to use it .
Perhaps someone here currently doing tests on knots could look at which is stronger? Estarzinger is testing at the moment and may have time to check this out.
#1034 ½ is the one commonly referred to as a 'Cowboy bowline', so until we get more info about its strength, perhaps it is better not to present both as equal variations?

Anyway, minor details. Overall your booklet is excellent .
The morning has whizzed by and I have still not had time to post my additional suggestions and why I think they are useful. I will do this later .

--------------

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I have called Midshipman’s Hitch when the second turn lies over the shoulder of the first – whether it is tied to a spar, another rope or to itself.
Similarly, I have called Rolling Hitch when the second turn follows the first, no matter what it is tied to.
Currently this is known most commonly as a 'Rolling hitch' not as a 'Midshipman's:
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Old 03-02-2014, 03:19   #32
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Re: Knot Booklet

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
My head hurts doing a bit more reading too. To add to the confusion, some internet sites (incorrectly I think) refer to a Midshipman's as the one you have shown as Rolling in your diagram!

There are definitely two forms of Rolling hitches and the Rolling hitch used in your Midshipman's diagram is the once most commonly known as a plain 'Rolling hitch' in current usage, whether it is used around a pole, another line, or around itself to form a loop. It is the one shown in the photos below.

For example it is frequently stated that a rolling hitch is the best quick way to take the load off a line when it is jammed in a winch. The rolling hitch referred to is not the one in your diagram.

Am describing the knots as:
1.) using a shoulder turn.
2.) Using parallel turns.

As far as I can make out, Ashley calls Rolling Hitch both to the knot that is tied to a rope (# 1735 using a shoulder turn) and to a spar (# 1734 using parallel turns).

He calls it Midshipman’s Hitch when tied to itself ( # 1728,1729 and 1739) whether tied using a shoulder turn (twice) or parallel turns (once).

By Ashley’s rules both of my drawings are Midshipman Hitches.

Since two out of three examples show the Midshipman’s Hitch with the shoulder turn, while the Rolling Hitch has one of each, and given the modern trend to call a knot tied in one way by one name, I will go with what I have.

P.S. Your example photo shows "the knot" tied to a spar.
According to Ashley, that would make it an incorrectly tied Rolling Hitch
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Old 03-02-2014, 13:43   #33
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Re: Knot Booklet

Hi Seaworthy Lass,

Just a small update on the Midshipman’s Hitch/Rolling Hitch saga.

If you look up ABoK 1855 and 1856 you will find that Ashley seems to have decided to simplify the distinction between them himself.

Have just read (Wiki) that in the Boy Scouts of America Handbook circa 1940’s they used to call the Midshipman’s Hitch the “ Tautline Hitch”, in later editions they changed that to mean the Rolling Hitch.
Hence so much confusion.
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Old 03-02-2014, 14:18   #34
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Re: Knot Booklet

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Originally Posted by 75RR View Post
Hi Seaworthy Lass,

Just a small update on the Midshipman’s Hitch/Rolling Hitch saga.

If you look up ABoK 1855 and 1856 you will find that Ashley seems to have decided to simplify the distinction between them himself.

Have just read (Wiki) that in the Boy Scouts of America Handbook circa 1940’s they used to call the Midshipman’s Hitch the “ Tautline Hitch”, in later editions they changed that to mean the Rolling Hitch.
Hence so much confusion.
Thanks for the info. The terms are confusing, as there is little congruency in the usage. I think in yachting the Rolling hitch is most commonly known as the knot I posted a photo of, whether it is attached to a line (eg to take the tension off a jammed winch) or a 'pole' (eg tying fenders on lifelines or tying a snubber onto chain). Can anyone else here comment on that?

I know your booklet is not just for sailors, but an explanatory note in there would be useful for us. This knot is one I would class as the three most common used sailing, so it is important that newcomers get it right.
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Old 03-02-2014, 16:41   #35
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Re: Knot Booklet

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I have a few suggestions for additional knots. I will jot them down and post them after breakfast.
Time ran away from me yesterday .

OK, having a quick look there are three knots that I think it would be good to see instructions for.

Butterfly bend:
Once you have learned to tie the butterfly loop it is dead easy to tie this, keeping the number of knots needed to a minimum. It has other advantages: it is a knot that can be undone after a load is applied and holds well in all but the newer slippery lines (apparently it is close to the strength of the Zepplin). Also load can be applied in any direction - to the loop or to either end. All this makes it a very useful bend to know.

Water bowline:
I use this in preference to the double bowline as it is stronger and almost no harder to tie. The same finishes can be applied to it.

Diamond knot:
This is one I have only recently needed to learn, but I will be using it quite a bit. It is used as the knot of choice at the end of a soft shackle and I think more and more sailors will be starting to make these if they are not already. They are easy to make once you have got the hang of the Diamond knot.
I watched a few YouTube videos on soft shackle making, and the instructions for this knot were very complicated. I struggled. It took me a while to realise this is just a Carrick bend with the working ends then continuing in the same direction they were looping around before, then coming up through the very centre of the Carrick. So easy once this is realised!
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Old 03-02-2014, 19:12   #36
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Re: Knot Booklet

I downloaded the manual and will spend some more time with it.

BUT

I know 5 ways to tie bowlines. The one you show is essentially the "rabbit and tree method" which I do not not tecah and do not like. It is too hard to tie on a boat underway.

I teach two methods

Easiest and Quickest Bowline EVER - YouTube

3. Bowline Overhand method around object. - YouTube I do not use that safety - just a half hitch
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Old 03-02-2014, 19:17   #37
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Re: Knot Booklet

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I downloaded the manual and will spend some more time with it.

BUT

I know 5 ways to tie bowlines. The one you show is essentially the "rabbit and tree method" which I do not not tecah and do not like. It is too hard to tie on a boat underway.

I teach too methods

Easiest and Quickest Bowline EVER - YouTube

3. Bowline Overhand method around object. - YouTube I do not use that safety - just a half hitch
I like the "American Bowline" from Bobby Schenk's "Complete Yachtsman"...
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Old 03-02-2014, 19:36   #38
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Re: Knot Booklet

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I like the "American Bowline" from Bobby Schenk's "Complete Yachtsman"...
Do you have an image or a video? Would love to see it.
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Old 03-02-2014, 20:01   #39
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Re: Knot Booklet

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I teach two methods

Easiest and Quickest Bowline EVER - YouTube

3. Bowline Overhand method around object. - YouTube I do not use that safety - just a half hitch
I like the second method. Very useful
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Old 03-02-2014, 21:27   #40
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Re: Knot Booklet

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Thanks for the info. The terms are confusing, as there is little congruency in the usage. I think in yachting the Rolling hitch is most commonly known as the knot I posted a photo of, whether it is attached to a line (eg to take the tension off a jammed winch) or a 'pole' (eg tying fenders on lifelines or tying a snubber onto chain). Can anyone else here comment on that?

I know your booklet is not just for sailors, but an explanatory note in there would be useful for us. This knot is one I would class as the three most common used sailing, so it is important that newcomers get it right.
I teach 4 separate boating standards (just joined ASA); all 4 teach the rolling hitch as in this video:

Sailing knots - How to tie a Rolling Hitch- The International Marine Book of Sailing - Robby Robinson - 0070532257 - YouTube

I use it mainly as a snubber on all chain ground tackle. Also to deal with overrides on winches, but I teach folks how to avoid those first.

BTW - I never attach fenders to lifelines; I use toerails or stanchions.
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Old 03-02-2014, 21:43   #41
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Re: Knot Booklet

Some quick comments

The knots I teach

-figure 8
-double overhand (best stopper knot)
- reef knot
- clove hitch
- cow hitch (lark's head) - You should add this.
- rolling hitch
- bowline
- double sheet bend
- round turn and 2 half hitches
- trucker's hitch

I will only comment on those

- I like the parts of line section
- stress that a round turn and 2 half hitches ends with a clove hitch not a cow hitch (lark's head)
- on sheet bends the working ends are on the same side of the bend.
- reef knot - stress opposites ends of the same line. You did indicate it is not a bend.
- I actually tie the overhand knots over my hand.
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Old 04-02-2014, 11:25   #42
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Re: Knot Booklet

Thanks for the book - another little gem to build knowledge. Greatly appreciated.
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Old 04-02-2014, 15:40   #43
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Re: Knot Booklet

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Do you have an image or a video? Would love to see it.

I don't have the book on me... So here's a pic.
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Old 04-02-2014, 15:46   #44
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Re: Knot Booklet

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I don't have the book on me... So here's a pic.
sorry about the quality, but this should give the idea.
Yes, I do use that one for getting a bowline tight around a spar. It is great for rigging the reefing lines to the boom so that there is no gap. You can get the clew right down that way.

Nice to put a name to it.
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Old 04-02-2014, 22:38   #45
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Re: Knot Booklet

Just had a chance to go through a few pages, and so far it looks great! 75RR, thanks for sharing this with everyone. I know I will make good use of it.
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