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Old 16-12-2011, 06:02   #106
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
It seems people are missing the point. I wasn't talking about what YOU do with YOUR boat. Or what Mr. B. COULD have done IF he had this or that. He had what he had. For those saying he should have put out ONE anchor because that's what YOU do with YOUR boat.....

Are you sure that's your response? He should have just put out ONE anchor in his situation? Which one? Why would that have been better than what he did, with what he had on board? Why would that have been better than my suggestion of using both of his anchors offshore to hold him?

I understand vectors, but think you are missing the definition of "full load". If one anchor already has the "full load", I don't see how anything another, stationary anchor can do would increase what has already been defined as the full load. The full load is the full load. There is no additional load to be added to a load that has been defined as the full load. Which is the boat, correct?

I'm trying to understand your thinking on this. I might be in a similar situation someday, and like to have these things already thought out in advance.
Your on the ball there, You have to think of every scenario and possibility that can happen, and even the ones you cant think of, And cover the lot, and still some thing different will happen,

But you can only do, with what you have at the time, other wise, improvise.
And if its night time, Well, I cant see in the dark, Hahahahahahaha

As the scouts say, Be prepared,
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Old 16-12-2011, 07:09   #107
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

I know my writing probably comes across as feistier than I intend, I'm working on that. But this is one of those situations where I really want to understand something I am obviously missing here. So I tend to keep picking until I finally get it.

I looked up that cove on GE, this is the place, right?


I couldn't find the picnic table from the sat images or some video I saw from a Hobie Tandem Island Youtube of the cove. Nice place.

Anyhow, I am trying to figure out HOW one of these anchors could multiply the load on the other one, no matter what the boat did.



And this is basically what I was suggesting as an alternative, utilizing the gear you had on board at the time. I see that as relevant, as most sailors would be doing well to have two anchors ready to go. The Gemini's are sensitive to weight. If I can understand this, and get away with one less pile of scrap metal on the boat someday, that's what I want to do. How else could you have maximized holding power with the conditions you were faced with?

I am also not seeing anchoring like this as being all that difficult. The Gem has something like a 14 ft. beam, right? Could drop an anchor off each bow and back up toward the beach to set them. Then swim a light line ashore and drive a stake or tie to a bush. To hold you until the wind shifts around.

Of course it would have helped enormously to know that the wind was going to shift around, wouldn't it.
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Old 16-12-2011, 08:05   #108
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

That nice looking beach right in the middle at the top. If you look very closely at it, you can see the nice clean sandy beach right in the middle of the piccy,
I was parked right in front of it, Just where the water has turned a deep green, It actually looks like a round hole in the bottom,

My boat was washed up almost on the extreme right hand side of that beach,
3-50 AM, Dead calm, 4-00 AM, I was already on the beach,

I am not the one arguing about the anchors,
I had one in front and one at the rear.

There is all sand on the beach, as you hit the water line, it is rocks, about 4 inches in diameter,
All along the right hand side it is big rocks, I am bloody glad I didnt end up crashing into them.

This cove works like a funnel from the bay, all wind and waves are concentrated into a small area as they come into the cove, and really get pushed in there very hard,

I was unlucky that I was in there when the southerly hit it, Straight up the beach , But it blew me sideways as it came in,

another thing about my Gemini, it does not sit still, it swings around all the time, So you get a constant moving picture of every thing outside when your sitting inside looking out the windows, Except at night time,

Thats why I put out 2 anchors, to stop the constant swing, one front, one rear,
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Old 16-12-2011, 08:39   #109
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

Its not very clear, but heres a piccy of it.
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Old 16-12-2011, 08:40   #110
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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If the "grand" title intimitaded you, I truly apologize. Most people don't know what emeritus means anyway.
In my world, emeritus is a title too seldom earned that affords tremendous respect.

You have invested thousands of hours into making this forum what it is. I would urge you to change your title back to Moderator Emeritus. If members fail to appreciate what it means perhaps we can afford to lose those members.
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Old 16-12-2011, 08:51   #111
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

So, it's this spot, specifically, then..

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Old 16-12-2011, 10:48   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul
I know my writing probably comes across as feistier than I intend, I'm working on that. But this is one of those situations where I really want to understand something I am obviously missing here. So I tend to keep picking until I finally get it.

I looked up that cove on GE, this is the place, right?


I couldn't find the picnic table from the sat images or some video I saw from a Hobie Tandem Island Youtube of the cove. Nice place.

Anyhow, I am trying to figure out HOW one of these anchors could multiply the load on the other one, no matter what the boat did.


And this is basically what I was suggesting as an alternative, utilizing the gear you had on board at the time. I see that as relevant, as most sailors would be doing well to have two anchors ready to go. The Gemini's are sensitive to weight. If I can understand this, and get away with one less pile of scrap metal on the boat someday, that's what I want to do. How else could you have maximized holding power with the conditions you were faced with?

I am also not seeing anchoring like this as being all that difficult. The Gem has something like a 14 ft. beam, right? Could drop an anchor off each bow and back up toward the beach to set them. Then swim a light line ashore and drive a stake or tie to a bush. To hold you until the wind shifts around.

Of course it would have helped enormously to know that the wind was going to shift around, wouldn't it.
A long as you get wind from your bow, I don't see any issue with your proposed arrangement. If you get wind from the beam, your anchors will drag and you'll swing ashore.

Note that the OP was oriented at 90° to your arrangement, beam on to the wind and seas and with a stern anchor out. He was guaranteed to drag one anchor in that configuration and was so close to the beach, he went ashore as it dragged.
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Old 16-12-2011, 11:13   #113
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

I don't think the anchors would necessarily drag when the wind went abeam. Depends on how strong and for how long. I think there is an excellent chance that the two anchors would be pulled sideways one at a time. They would transfer the load back and forth during the swing. I think they would reset in that sand. My intention would be that the stern line pulled loose first if the wind picked up, or that someone on board would notice the weather changes and let that line go.

I guess I missed the part where Mr. B. anchored beam to the wind during a 35 mph blow. It was a NW wind, originally, when he set the hooks, right?

And I haven't yet seen any suggestions here that would work better, or did I miss that entirely, too? He had two anchors. Where else would he put them with a chance of it working?
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Old 16-12-2011, 11:26   #114
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

only problem ---- there is no such thing as safe while anchored or underway. safe is a box of metal with a lock used for storage of valuables on land. during any changeable weather, stay on anchor watch until is done. that is only way to avoid hurting your boat and self. good luck and next time make sure you keep a watch f or weather in advance of sleeping. when winds are predicted here i remain awake and read a book and watch often for anything untoward. only danger at anchor is lackadaisical attitude. as soon as one believes all is well, stuff changes. smooth sailing. you were fortunate this time. please be safe.
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Old 16-12-2011, 12:53   #115
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
I don't think the anchors would necessarily drag when the wind went abeam. Depends on how strong and for how long. I think there is an excellent chance that the two anchors would be pulled sideways one at a time. They would transfer the load back and forth during the swing. I think they would reset in that sand. My intention would be that the stern line pulled loose first if the wind picked up, or that someone on board would notice the weather changes and let that line go.

I guess I missed the part where Mr. B. anchored beam to the wind during a 35 mph blow. It was a NW wind, originally, when he set the hooks, right?

And I haven't yet seen any suggestions here that would work better, or did I miss that entirely, too? He had two anchors. Where else would he put them with a chance of it working?
This is where you missed the force multiplication point. With the wind on the beam, 3 bad things happen:
* waves hit the wide side of the boat.
* wind hits the side of the boat.
These 2 factors make the force of the 35 knot breeze "feel" like 50 knots to the boat, or make the boat seem like a 50-footer, depending on how you look at it.
* because of the wide angle between the anchors, the force on each will be much greater than the wind + wave load, perhaps double. This is simple engineering statics problem, and though the calculation depends on the angles, the figure is close. Think "tight rope." The stress must approach infinity, to keep the rope is absolutely straight.

Synthesis
Click the the tab "rodeanch.xls." Enter the figures for the boat, go up to about 50 feet in length to correct for being beam on, look at the maximum over tension figure, and then double it because of the extreme rode angles. Depending on your figures, the value will vary, but it will be over 7,000 pounds and something will fail every time.

What would work better?
a. Never tie bow and stern if there is ANY chance of weather. Generally, a bad idea. IF he had tied both anchors to the same point (apex of the bridle) he might have stayed. This is because the bow would have faced the wind. The swing would have been very little different.
b. Never have the angle between the anchors more than 90 degrees.
c. On a boat where you can lift the boards and rudders, consider leaving the boards down and lifting the rudders up. This moves the center of effort underwater forward and should stop sailing around the anchor; it worked that way on my Stiletto.

IF there had been 2 anchors set at about 90degrees, one anchor would still have taken the full load, no avoiding that. With a variable bottom and small anchors, there are no guarantees. It's possible this was a no win situation and he was bound forthe beach, whatever his actions. Once waves start to pile up in a tight cove like that, I can't second guess the outcome.

Setting 2 anchors doesn't really increase holding power; it reduces reset problems, limits swing, and makes everything more complicated. Holding power comes from getting an anchor well dug in to a good bottom; no tricks will really help a poor bottom. Just a bigger anchor and sometimes more chain.
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Old 16-12-2011, 14:28   #116
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
I don't think the anchors would necessarily drag when the wind went abeam. Depends on how strong and for how long. I think there is an excellent chance that the two anchors would be pulled sideways one at a time. They would transfer the load back and forth during the swing. I think they would reset in that sand. My intention would be that the stern line pulled loose first if the wind picked up, or that someone on board would notice the weather changes and let that line go.

I guess I missed the part where Mr. B. anchored beam to the wind during a 35 mph blow. It was a NW wind, originally, when he set the hooks, right?

And I haven't yet seen any suggestions here that would work better, or did I miss that entirely, too? He had two anchors. Where else would he put them with a chance of it working?
You didnt miss the point of me anchoring beam on to the wind, I wasnt,

I had my stern to the Bay and my bow to the beach,

The front anchor was to stop the swing of my boat, That inlet is too narrow to allow the boat to swing,
Too close to the rocks on the east side for me to allow for a swinging boat.

There are also big rocks just submerged in that inlet you need to be clear of. So where you park is very critical.

I was totally unafected by the North Westerly storm, which started at 8-00 PM, and raged all night, according to the locals I spoke to afterwards in town,

The Southerly Buster hit at between 3-50 am and 4-00 AM, The watch went to bed at 3-50 AM in a dead calm.

We were on the beach at 4-00 AM.

Southerly Busters are unique to the area that I was in, one area in New Zealand and one single spot in South America,

And you need local knowledge for all three places,

When I hit the beach, I was at a 45 degree angle to it, But it had rocks at the low water mark.

The wind and wave action had pushed me sideways along the beach from the point that I was parked at.

If I had of went straight onto the beach, from where I was parked, I would have been on sand only, Resulting in no damage to the boat.

I did actually consider the night before of parking on the beach, as it was dead calm in there,

Catamarans can do that, park on the beach, and it was a lovely spot to park in,

I was basically single handed, even tho I did have a passenger on board, who knows absolutely nothing about boats,

I also hadnt slept in 3 days, So I was Ratshit, A good nights sleep was critical for my health and well being,
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Old 16-12-2011, 14:39   #117
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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So, it's this spot, specifically, then..

Yep, right on the button, right in front of that thing on the beach, I think they are tents, as there are no buildings there. The picnic table is to the left of those things on the beach, the dark spot in the water to the right is rocks, the dark spots to the left in the water are rocks,

One rock behind and on the right and one rock to the left and in front of my boat are actually out of the water at low tide, I could see them,

The sand beach is also in front of those things on the beach, Its not a very wide patch of sand, but enough to park my boat on safely.

That picture is full high tide, Low tide is the green line where it goes dark, the dark are rocks,
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Old 16-12-2011, 14:47   #118
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

No sleep in 3 days, a tough spot to park, terrible weather. Lessons learned. Life goes on. A combination I will try hard to avoid.

I hope we havn't seem crittical; we're just trying to think it through. Personally, given the anchors you had and the place you were, it's 50/50 that anything would have worked. I was only trying to explain why it didn't work. You really had neither the space nor parts for what would work.

Best luck fixing her up. I believe you can and will.
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Old 16-12-2011, 14:48   #119
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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only problem ---- there is no such thing as safe while anchored or underway. safe is a box of metal with a lock used for storage of valuables on land. during any changeable weather, stay on anchor watch until is done. that is only way to avoid hurting your boat and self. good luck and next time make sure you keep a watch f or weather in advance of sleeping. when winds are predicted here i remain awake and read a book and watch often for anything untoward. only danger at anchor is lackadaisical attitude. as soon as one believes all is well, stuff changes. smooth sailing. you were fortunate this time. please be safe.
Nothing was predicted or mentioned about a wind or change from the south.
The current all ships warning was from the Northwest, and it was in excess of 35 knots and high seas. Starting at approximately 8-00 PM Wednesday night, And I was tucked safely out of it in the inlet,
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Old 16-12-2011, 14:55   #120
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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So, it's this spot, specifically, then..

You see the rocks on the left bank, its exactly the same on the right bank, but their covered in grass over hanging the rocks, But they are very noticeable from sea level and to keep away from.
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