Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-12-2011, 14:50   #31
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,309
Images: 69
Re: Just when You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

Gold coast right now, but heading south when the southerlies let up a bit. Hopefully Yamba on sunday.

How is your boat? Have they got it back yet?
__________________

__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 15:05   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,491
Re: Just when You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

[QUOTE=44'cruisingcat;834356]Gold coast right now, but heading south when the southerlies let up a bit. Hopefully Yamba on sunday.

How is your boat? Have they got it back yet?[/QUOTe

Yes, it is in the dock here,
Very bad, but they are going to fix it,
The assessor will be here shortly to look at it,
Let you know then
__________________

__________________
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 15:08   #33
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,309
Images: 69
Re: Just when You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

Good news, really good news.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 15:11   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,491
Re: Just when You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Mr B,

I too am sorry that your learning curve has been so dramatic, and hope that retrieval from Broughton goes well.

But, I think that someone should point out to you that anchoring in 7 feet depth and only 100 feet off the beach is not such a hot idea. Why? Well, in 7 feet if ANY surge builds up (doesn't need "screaming winds") you will be in the surf line. And at only 100 feet off the beach, you have no buffer zone if something goes wrong. And anchoring bow and stern as you were, only one anchor is really holding you... you didn't drag both anchors, only the windward one.

Finally, I can understand your reaction to this incident, but really, two 80 kg anchors is silly on your boat. A little research will likely show you that somewhat smaller hooks will be completely adequate for your boat.

You know, sad experiences like this are why we often suggest that newbie cruisers take smaller steps as they ascend the learning curve. The fact that you had mostly been lying to moorings rather than gathering anchoring experience is a perfect example.

Please don't take this as dumping on you. I think that you have done well in recovering from a bad situation, and Ann and I both wish you well in the repairs and eventual continuation of your journey.

Oh... don't let this keep you from returning to Broughton sometime in the future -- is it is a very useful and kinda picturesque stop on a coastal passage.

Cheers,

Jim
No I dont take it as dumping on me,
But I did set the front anchor and then backed up and dropped the rear one, then went forward and set the back one,
The front one did hold as it has bent the shaft on it by about 30degrees,
I also let out enough rope to allow for the high tide and about a 2 metre wave under the boat, so I did every thing I possibly could,
It just wasnt enough,

Broughton is a nice place,
__________________
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 13:32   #35
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,868
Re: Just when You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
No I dont take it as dumping on me,
But I did set the front anchor and then backed up and dropped the rear one, then went forward and set the back one,
The front one did hold as it has bent the shaft on it by about 30degrees,
I also let out enough rope to allow for the high tide and about a 2 metre wave under the boat, so I did every thing I possibly could,
It just wasnt enough,

Broughton is a nice place,
This is an interesting peice of information. Why were you using a stern anchor? I've dragged twice, so far, and one was because of improper use of a stern tie (equivalent to a stern anchor in terms of issues they can cause).

Depending on scope and orientation, it might be unfair to blame the anchors. I'll assume that you probably had plenty of scope out (maybe about 100' = 7:1 ). This is based on your statement that your bow anchor held and you hit the beach at 100' away. Based on the above assumptions, is it also possible that you were actually oriented beam on to the beach? How tight were the two opposing anchor rodes?

Here's why I ask these questions: If you have two anchors out at 180 degrees to eachother with a force from ninety degrees to the two anchors, then, if the rodes are reasonably tight, you can get a massive multiplication of forces. Wind and waves beam on to the boat will give high loads to begin with. If the rodes are taught, then the geometry of the situation can double the loads to the anchors, guaranteeing that one or both will begin to drag. They'll drag until the geometry has adjusted itself to lessen the forces or the boat is on the beach, whichever comes first.
__________________
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 14:00   #36
Registered User
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34, "Shoal Survivor"
Posts: 3,541
Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

Mr B.

We all feel for you. Many of us are cat sailors that anchor in similar places, so your story hits close to home.

I assume you heard of the couple that lost a Gemini in Greece a month or so ago. Similar circumstances; anchored in shallow water in a place they didn't want to be, the wind changed, and they got pounded.
Sail Delmarva: How Quickly Things Can Change...

I suspect it comes down to forces that simply go out of sight with breaking waves. I their case, an all-chain rode was a factor. In your case the Danforth somehow failed and the Bruce had neither the power in sand nor that distance to set properly. My understanding is that the anchors were tide to the bow and the stern; that's bad in weather, as the boat can start taking waves from the side. 2 from the bow is better:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...nd-anchor.html, or perhaps just one BIG Manson/Rocna.

If there is a takeaway from this it is that anchoring is a serious and unforgiving business.

I love your attitude toward the repairs. It DOES sound manageable, with some skills and realistic expectations. My only advise, having once taken quite a bit of water through open hatches (rouge wave on a nice day) is that a rapid rinse with freshwater and rapid drying is key. Another time I was holed by a semi-floating tree; a rapid haul, quick rinse, and quick attention to salt made it a relatively minor repair, below my deductible (but my insurance paid for the whole thing, because they estimated the repairs at $2500 above the deductible!). So often folks wait for the insurance and then wonder, "oh gee", why the boat is a wreck. I wish more folk reacted like you. Getting a boat "wet" shouldn't be grounds for total loss, but many believe it is.

Thanks for posting. We all learn from it.
__________________
"Climbing (sailing) is like fun, only different."

Tom Pattey, Scottish ice climber



http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 14:22   #37
Registered User
 
nv5l's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Liveaboard
Boat: Allied Luders 33, Hull 98, 1971
Posts: 393
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham

This is an interesting peice of information. Why were you using a stern anchor? I've dragged twice, so far, and one was because of improper use of a stern tie (equivalent to a stern anchor in terms of issues they can cause).

Depending on scope and orientation, it might be unfair to blame the anchors. I'll assume that you probably had plenty of scope out (maybe about 100' = 7:1 ). This is based on your statement that your bow anchor held and you hit the beach at 100' away. Based on the above assumptions, is it also possible that you were actually oriented beam on to the beach? How tight were the two opposing anchor rodes?

Here's why I ask these questions: If you have two anchors out at 180 degrees to eachother with a force from ninety degrees to the two anchors, then, if the rodes are reasonably tight, you can get a massive multiplication of forces. Wind and waves beam on to the boat will give high loads to begin with. If the rodes are taught, then the geometry of the situation can double the loads to the anchors, guaranteeing that one or both will begin to drag. They'll drag until the geometry has adjusted itself to lessen the forces or the boat is on the beach, whichever comes first.
This us exactly what happened to me once. I should have known better, but took someone's advice and put out the stem anchor so I wouldn't swing into someone who anchored under me.

I should have just moved, but when the wind shifted, as forecast, I was beam to and think the bow actually exceeded hull speed as she repeatedly dragged the CQR off the bow. She swung on the stern anchor and ended up about 100 feet off the rocks by the time the winds died down a little from a peak of about 50.

I doubt I'll use a stern anchor again anytime soon...
__________________
don
NV5L
S/V Aurora
nv5l is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 18:24   #38
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 908
So here goes my armchair quarterback.... I am not saying by any stretch that I could have saved either this boat or Footprint (just finished reading the blog) but what I have done any time I have been anchored with a lee shore and worsening weather.
I would first start engine immediately, and leave running and ready. If conditions worsen you have several options: immediately raise anchor while you can and motor out into deep water to ride it out, or motor at low speed into wind and waves to lessen strain on anchor. If anchor drags, you can motor to keep yourself in place while you cut anchor line.
That may be the biggest lesson- be able to cut loose your anchor and rode quickly to escape a lee shore, because sometimes in efforts to retrieve you can foul the rode on prop or rudder, making saving boat unlikely.
The worst assumption is that an open fetch into a bay with a lee shore represents a tenable situation. As soon as this scenario presents itself you must get out of there. Planning an escape route in advance on chart or plotter helps tremendously especially since it always seems like these things happen at night.
In the case of this forum entry, i would have kept an anchor watch all night with the unstable weather, and planned escape as soon as wind shifted.

All this said, best of luck and condolences for damage and loss.

that's why this forum is very helpful, so we can read about other folks' experiences and try to put ourselves in scenario and imagine how we'd survive.
__________________
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 19:29   #39
Registered User
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34, "Shoal Survivor"
Posts: 3,541
Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

I've had one close encounter with a lee shore, worth sharing. I learned from it.

I was running up a long stretch of coast, with building thunderstorms. Since they were coming from the west and the gusts "always" blast from the west, I got in close, a fraction of a mile, to avoid some of the blast and the waves.

Only the storm turned and reversed and came the other way. It was a monster that capsized several good sized sport fishing boats, took several markers off station, and put a dredge on the beach. I found myself getting closer and closer to the beach. I had a 1200-pound 27-foot Stiletto cat that can go airborne under bare poles, simply by getting too much wind under the tramp, and the waves were 6 feet and VERY steep. I had 18 hp, enough to push into the wind, but if I had enough speed for steerage, I was going airborne, with 2/3 of the boat in the air. I got quite close to the breakers.

I learned that turning the engine to one side (it was steerable) at low throttle was enough to keep the bow ~ 30 degrees off the wind with very little way, which got me both away from the beach and kept me safe from air under the tramp and going airborne.

Clearly, several lessons.
__________________
"Climbing (sailing) is like fun, only different."

Tom Pattey, Scottish ice climber



http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 03:03   #40
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
To the people making suggestions. Bear in mind the OP was asleep when the boat dragged. His first discovery was when the boat was on the beach.

The simple fact is , and we've all done it, is that anchored 100 feet from a lee shore is too risky there's simply no time to act. In my case I would have posted anchor watches with the other crew. The whole boat Sleeping on anchor really isn't a good thing.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 03:28   #41
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Just when You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
But, I think that someone should point out to you that anchoring in 7 feet depth and only 100 feet off the beach is not such a hot idea. Why? Well, in 7 feet if ANY surge builds up (doesn't need "screaming winds") you will be in the surf line. And at only 100 feet off the beach, you have no buffer zone if something goes wrong. And anchoring bow and stern as you were, only one anchor is really holding you... you didn't drag both anchors, only the windward one.
+1
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 03:43   #42
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Full time cruising. Currently in the Med.
Boat: Aluminium yacht
Posts: 10,020
Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The whole boat Sleeping on anchor really isn't a good thing.

Dave
Lots of boats, like us, do this all the time usually over 300 days a year. There are nights when you need an anchor watch, but they are rare.

Hope you get the boat repaired quickly Mr B. It is amazing how well repairs can be done. We are keeping fingers crossed for you at this end.

I don’t think now is the time anchoring tactics
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 05:59   #43
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77

Lots of boats, like us, do this all the time usually over 300 days a year. There are nights when you need an anchor watch, but they are rare.

Hope you get the boat repaired quickly Mr B. It is amazing how well repairs can be done. We are keeping fingers crossed for you at this end.

I don’t think now is the time anchoring tactics
I disagree. If the only point of this forum was to hand a hanky to anyone who had a bad experience, most of us wouldn't read. Most of us agree that the situation may have been unavoidable. That said, discussing tactics for avoidance may help one of us, or you, avoid the same fate through prevention.
None of us ever anchors perfectly 100% of the time. But discussing perfect anchoring technique and tactics helps us learn.
__________________
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 06:44   #44
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by malbert73

I disagree. If the only point of this forum was to hand a hanky to anyone who had a bad experience, most of us wouldn't read.
Just a bit insensitive IMHO. The beauty of this forum is that many times our members feel "safe" enough to share real world bad experiences with their on-line friends. Mr B was under no obligation to tell us anything, or to tell us any more for that matter.

When it devolves into a list of coulda, woulda, shoulda by monday morning quarterbacks it is certainly no fun for the OP. I am certain Mr B has his own list and doesn't need our list as he hasn't asked. He has answered questions asked of him which is nice.

Here's what I glean

- it was near the end of a 3,000 mile delivery. The crew was likely fatigued
- the ground tackle came with the boat. Mr B has already condemned it's shortcomings
- bad weather came up and a sheltered cove was recommended and taken after a tough sail
- a decision was made on where to anchor based on best shelter vs. proximity to beach. I don't think we learn anything second guessing location
- a decision was made on scope, number of anchors and anchoring method. Second guessing this situation clearly won't help anyone unless future conditions are the same
- conditions shifted while the fatigued crew was sleeping
- an anchor alarm was set and subsequently turned off

Could things have been done different? Of course. Everything could be different. Would the result change? Who knows?

I also believe Mr B has a smart head on his shoulders with a good unedrstanding of anchoring techniques and is probably second guessing hinself. But even if he gives us his list it may have worked in that situation but may not work in a future situation that he, you or I may have.

I have my woulda, coulda, shoulda thoughts but it would be stupid of me to share them. I wasn't there...
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 06:50   #45
Registered User
 
Eleven's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Southampton UK
Boat: Jaguar 22 mono called Arfur.
Posts: 1,220
Images: 3
Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

When you feel down about it just remind yourself that you did all the thingd you could to save life, and boat, and maybe your premiums will go up a notch but that's only money.
You did damn well not to loose the lot.
__________________

__________________
Ex Prout 31 Sailor, Now it's a 22ft Jaguar called 'Arfur' here in sunny Southampton, UK.
A few places left in Quayside Marina and Kemps Marina.
Eleven is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is a Pearson P-30 a Good Safe Boat for Open Ocean ? danniel24 General Sailing Forum 12 11-07-2015 06:39
Safe Boat Operations – New Boat Handling and Maneuvering Skills Mariners Commercial Posts 0 05-10-2011 14:07


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:16.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.