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Old 22-01-2012, 20:00   #151
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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I believe that you said that you are an engineer and are going to make your own 60Kg anchors. Like others, I suggest that these are way too heavy and you will have a hell of a job if you ever have a electric anchor winch failure and need to retrieve one manually which usually happens when you are short crewed and in adverse conditions. We recently replaced a CQR which often dragged despite being set correctly with plenty of chain and we had no confidence in it. I met a commercial fisherman who ran a 50 ton trawler between Gladstone and New Caledonia who said they had switched over to the Super Sarca anchors for their fleet and had successfully rode our cyclonic conditions and he thoughly recommended them. So we took his advice and could not be happier. It is an excellent anchor and sets first time every time on a variety of bottoms. The Super Sarca # 5 should be ideal for your cat and weighs only 14.8 Kg (the #6 only weighs 22Kg) which will give you a great weight saving compared to the 60Kg one you have in mind. Well worth taking a look at them.

Regards,
Steve

Could you show a pic or link of the anchor your referencing a Super Sarca. I have the same catamaran as MrB
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Old 22-01-2012, 20:05   #152
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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Originally Posted by webejammin View Post
Quote:
I believe that you said that you are an engineer and are going to make your own 60Kg anchors. Like others, I suggest that these are way too heavy and you will have a hell of a job if you ever have a electric anchor winch failure and need to retrieve one manually which usually happens when you are short crewed and in adverse conditions. We recently replaced a CQR which often dragged despite being set correctly with plenty of chain and we had no confidence in it. I met a commercial fisherman who ran a 50 ton trawler between Gladstone and New Caledonia who said they had switched over to the Super Sarca anchors for their fleet and had successfully rode our cyclonic conditions and he thoughly recommended them. So we took his advice and could not be happier. It is an excellent anchor and sets first time every time on a variety of bottoms. The Super Sarca # 5 should be ideal for your cat and weighs only 14.8 Kg (the #6 only weighs 22Kg) which will give you a great weight saving compared to the 60Kg one you have in mind. Well worth taking a look at them.

Regards,
Steve

Could you show a pic or link of the anchor your referencing a Super Sarca. I have the same catamaran as MrB

Anchor Right Australia Made nearby to where Mr B lives.
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Old 22-01-2012, 20:27   #153
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
So I am trying to understand, are you fixing up the boat or is the boat a total loss? Did you salvage gear to put in another boat?
So sorry for you to have to go through this....
Still waiting on Quotes from the mechanic and electrician, another 2 weeks yet,
Every one has closed for the Xmas holidays here, So no quotes,

So I still dont know whether they will write it off or fix it,

I am in limbo till then,

I saved some gear, But a fair amount is gone, All my paper charts are a soggy mash, two Brand new automatic PDF's blew up in the cupboard,

Any thing under 3 feet or so above the hulls, forget it, its stuffed,

I just hope people learn from this, It just may save them one day,
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Old 22-01-2012, 20:44   #154
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Could you show a pic or link of the anchor your referencing a Super Sarca. I have the same catamaran as MrB

Anchor Right Australia Made nearby to where Mr B lives.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link Nice looking anchor I bet the Aus price will be a lot ?

MrB thanks for posting the pic's of the wreck It paines me to see a bottom tore up like that.
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Old 22-01-2012, 20:50   #155
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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Originally Posted by Pat Ross View Post
Thanks for the great post

Tell me besides anchor upgrades, being in that situation where do you wish you had gone? I am not familiar with the area, here in the U.S., but it seemed from the original weather concerns like that was initially a good spot to hold up but you sound as if there would have been a better choice. Where considering the circumstances you faced?

Pat
G'Day Pat,

Here's some other data about this situation. On the east coast of Oz (and most anywhere in the southern hemisphere) a strong NW wind is an indication of the approach of either a trough or a cold front. So, when the system then passes over your position... usually within a few hours of the strong NW buildup... there will be a sudden change to the S or SW. The strength of the change varies, but is usually similar in strength to the preceding NW'lies. And this is exactly what Brian has reported!

So, the first thing that one might do differently is to NOT anchor in Esmerelda cove, because it is completely open to the S, is fairly narrow with steep to shores and thus tends to focus any S'ly wave action towards the head of the bay. In this case, Esmerelda was not the best anchorage on Broughton, but possibly the worst. Brian has reported that he was very fatigued, and the lure of the currently calm conditions there must have been seductive, but knowing what must be coming should take one elsewhere.

Now, Brian has also reported that he anchored in 7 feet of water, 100 feet off the beach. When the beach was a weather shore that likely seemed good, but with ANY change in wind direction the situation would deteriorate terribly (as it did). Consider that if the waves built at all, his anchorage position was in the surf line even if the anchors held and that this puts terrific stresses on the ground tackle. No wonder he dragged!

So, the second thing one might do differently is to anchor much farther from the shore. As I mentioned in a previous post, the recommended anchorage in Esmerelda is roughly 1000 feet from the beach. Yes, this would have been less comfortable initially, and yes, it would have been very uncomfortable after the S'ly change, but his boat would have not been on the beach if his anchors held -- and out there with a bunch of scope out they just might have done so.

Please don't take all this as a condemnation of Brian's actions. He did what he deemed best at the time, and he has been forthright in telling us about his misadventures. But, when you (Pat) ask what could have been done differently, I believe that there are some possibilities that should be discussed.

And finally FWIW, in the various times that we've anchored at Broughton, we have avoided Esmerelda, because in these waters wind shifts to the south are common and are not always associated with the well-forecast frontal passages.

For Brian, I hope that your negotiations with the insurers are going well, and that some closure is near. Whichever way it goes, I hope that you can soon return to the water and carry on with your plans.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 22-01-2012, 21:18   #156
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

You have it right there Jim,

But a thousand feet back from the beach would have put us in the bay, It was extremely rough when I went in through there, I would not park in that bay at any time,

Most I would have parked from the beach, maybe 200 or so feet, I was beyond the surf line and the 7 foot depth was at low tide,

Those waves coming from the south east, came into the inlet at full height, Jacked up more so because of the funnel effect from the bay.
so where you parked is irrelevant, the waves are going to hit you big time any way,

You might have missed me saying that if I was further back, I would have been on the rocks, with a totally different out come, for the worst,

I dont even want to think about that one,

Cheers,
Brian,
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Old 22-01-2012, 22:01   #157
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
You have it right there Jim,

But a thousand feet back from the beach would have put us in the bay, It was extremely rough when I went in through there, I would not park in that bay at any time,

Most I would have parked from the beach, maybe 200 or so feet, I was beyond the surf line and the 7 foot depth was at low tide,

Those waves coming from the south east, came into the inlet at full height, Jacked up more so because of the funnel effect from the bay.
so where you parked is irrelevant, the waves are going to hit you big time any way,

You might have missed me saying that if I was further back, I would have been on the rocks, with a totally different out come, for the worst,

I dont even want to think about that one,

Cheers,
Brian,
G'Day Brian,

Once again I refer you to Alan Lucas's "Cruising the NSW Coast"... the bible of NSW cruising.

His recommended anchor spot in Esmerelda (for N'ly winds only) is roughly 1000 feet off the beach, which puts it just E of the small point on the W shore. I guess that is what you are calling "in the bay". This area has about 6-8 metres of depth, good holding and would have been exposed to incoming seas. But, in that depth they would not have been breaking and would not have presented unusual stresses to your ground tackle. You might well have held there... who knows? But even if you had dragged, there would have been time for a response before you reached the beach (or rocks). When you anchored, with NW winds, your 7 foot depth was indeed not in the surf line, but after the S'ly change with much larger incoming waves I bet it was. You don't know, because you said that by the time you were awake you were already on the beach.

The point I was trying to bring out for Pat in the previous post is that often the safest place to anchor is not the most comfortable place... one of those inconvenient facts!

I'm not sure why you think that being farther out would have resulted in your ending up on the rocks. I think that you might well have held on out there, and you surely would have had time to do something to avoid the rocks should you have dragged and not been able to motor on out.

At any rate, I again say that I'm not trying to denigrate your actions, but to propose some other ones that might have had a better outcome.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 22-01-2012, 23:28   #158
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

If Heather had of stayed awake another 10 minutes,

This thread would not be here,

As I would have been awake and motored out of there, or failing that, I could have motored it onto the beach where the sand was, and waited for the next high tide to get it off the beach. Undamaged,

AARRRRHHHHHH, Hindsight, Its a great thing,

But I am learning from it, and I hope it helps some else as well.

Cheers,
Brian.
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Old 23-01-2012, 00:33   #159
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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Originally Posted by Ozbullwinkle View Post
I met a commercial fisherman who ran a 50 ton trawler between Gladstone and New Caledonia who said they had switched over to the Super Sarca anchors for their fleet and had successfully rode our cyclonic conditions and he thoughly recommended them. So we took his advice and could not be happier. It is an excellent anchor and sets first time every time on a variety of bottoms. The Super Sarca # 5 should be ideal for your cat and weighs only 14.8 Kg (the #6 only weighs 22Kg) which will give you a great weight saving compared to the 60Kg one you have in mind. Well worth taking a look at them.

Regards,
Steve
Have you read Testing the new generation of anchors They tested and pretty well came to the same conclusion as you.
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Old 23-01-2012, 01:05   #160
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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G'Day Pat,

Here's some other data about this situation. On the east coast of Oz (and most anywhere in the southern hemisphere) a strong NW wind is an indication of the approach of either a trough or a cold front. So, when the system then passes over your position... usually within a few hours of the strong NW buildup... there will be a sudden change to the S or SW. The strength of the change varies, but is usually similar in strength to the preceding NW'lies. And this is exactly what Brian has reported!
The way it is down here on the southern australian coast is exactly as Jim describes it - and it's as reliable as clockwork (or anti-clockwork ). The wind just unwinds around the clock - and around and around...

The nor'easts are usually light, the northerlies build and nor'westerlies can be dangerous and wet. Then with the passage of the front come the sou'westerlies and any rain turns to showers. Sometimes the winds can lighten again as the direction continues to unwind but, in summer especially, sou'easterly gales are common. In fact, most early southern australian shipwrecks were thru these SE gales.

All anchoring decisions down this way are made in the context of this completely reliable wind cycle. As I'd expect, seems the same applies on the east coast.
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Old 23-01-2012, 02:03   #161
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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Have you read Testing the new generation of anchors They tested and pretty well came to the same conclusion as you.
No, I hadn't seen this article but have read it now thanks to you and it does confirm the real life experience of the commercial fisherman and myself. I was interested to also read how many times the testers experienced the CQR just lying on its side and refusing to set which is exactly what we have experienced many times with our old CQR and have snorkelled over it while setting it to see it doing just that.

The Super Sarca certainly passed all of the tests with flying colours. One thing I do disagree with the testers is that they said that it does not offer yachtsmen any advantages over the Sarca Excel as yachtsmen do not anchor in reef & they said something along the lines of you should not anchor in coral anyway. Correct on one hand in that you should not anchor in coral but there are many reefs that are not coral in lower latitudes. The tripping feature of the Super Sarca is just as important on a sandy, mud or gravel bottom as you can still encounter an old cable or other type of snag to foul your anchor. One thing I will mention for anyone who gets a Super Sarca is that it is essential to attach it to the chain with the right size shackle so that the shackle cannot go through the slot sideways then fall underneath the shank which will prevent its ability to trip.

I also always use a rubber snubber when anchoring and also use a bridle when anchoring a cat or a large cruiser which has the right deck harware like fairleads to allow the use of one which further reduces the load on an anchor during a blow.
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Old 23-01-2012, 03:02   #162
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

Geez Brian.......I just found out....least you are both ok...... You can't sail in the dirt so gotta count your blessings as your doing.
Wow.....I must read the whole thread.
Keep up that postive ....next adventure please, kinda attitude you have.
It will stand you in good stead & g'luck with the insurance. Damn just when you had bonded on a rough one too.
Best wishes from
Roly,Denise, Gabe.
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Old 23-01-2012, 11:06   #163
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

Ahoy Brian!
It looks like you were lucky and unlucky at the same time. I also have a catamaran and anchor with a pair of anchors frequently. As Thinwater has posted, the problem with Danforth's is letting go when the tide changes or the wind changes. It is also correct to use a bridle to help prevent the boat sailing around and secure both anchors to the same point on the bridle. It looks like you were forced into a tight place under unusual circumstances. Here in the East USA we get storms out of the NE that usually shift to NW abruptly, is that the case with your storm, a 90 degree shift, or did yours shift 180, kind of like having a cyclone go over. I've heard of one fellow who uses a pair of anchors in series, I think he anchors the second anchor to the the same chain attachment as the first. He uses different types of anchors so that if one doesn't work on that bottom, the other will take over. I've also heard this is a bad idea. He says it has never failed.
I also put my boat on a beach, but I did it properly, asleep at the wheel, 7.5 knots in a side shore wind. It woke me up. That was one of the most depressing situations ever, so I can sympathise with what you must have been feeling. Fortunately I was in a rising tide, the beach was all sand, and I was able to back off in the surf.
Thanks for your account,
Capn Andy
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Old 23-01-2012, 17:34   #164
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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Originally Posted by kaimusailing View Post
Ahoy Brian!
It looks like you were lucky and unlucky at the same time. I also have a catamaran and anchor with a pair of anchors frequently. As Thinwater has posted, the problem with Danforth's is letting go when the tide changes or the wind changes. It is also correct to use a bridle to help prevent the boat sailing around and secure both anchors to the same point on the bridle. It looks like you were forced into a tight place under unusual circumstances. Here in the East USA we get storms out of the NE that usually shift to NW abruptly, is that the case with your storm, a 90 degree shift, or did yours shift 180, kind of like having a cyclone go over. I've heard of one fellow who uses a pair of anchors in series, I think he anchors the second anchor to the the same chain attachment as the first. He uses different types of anchors so that if one doesn't work on that bottom, the other will take over. I've also heard this is a bad idea. He says it has never failed.
I also put my boat on a beach, but I did it properly, asleep at the wheel, 7.5 knots in a side shore wind. It woke me up. That was one of the most depressing situations ever, so I can sympathise with what you must have been feeling. Fortunately I was in a rising tide, the beach was all sand, and I was able to back off in the surf.
Thanks for your account,
Capn Andy
Andy. You need an Auto pilot, Mate, Hahahahaha,

They drive the boat for you,

Both my anchors came with the Boat,

Depth sounder has alarms that will wake you up when the water starts getting shallower, You can set it for any depth,
Before you hit the beach, Hahahahaha Your lucky that the beach was not rocky,

Fibreglass and rocks dont mix, The fibreglass loses every time,

The beauty of a cat is you can put them on the beach,
Check your thru hulls closely after tho, You can damage them sitting on the sand, and it will let the water come in,

The Danforth has another little trick for beginners, When it rolls over on a changing tide, If your in gravel, it can pick up a rock and jam it in the hinge part and wont work, it is jammed open on the wrong side and wont reset,

I found out this little trick when dragging up the Burnett River after a tide change,, Pulled the anchor up to investigate why it would not set,
The rock was jammed in tite,

In Fiji, I was on swing moorings, I only used my anchor once in Lautoka, it worked there because I was stuck on a couple of cables, Took some time pulling up the anchor, heavy as, I had never even lifted the anchor up before that, So I didnt know how heavy or lite it was,
No windlass, Just Muscle,
After getting the scrap cables off, 5 miles down the bay, The anchor I found was very lite,
Next time was Vanuatu, the Danforth dragged, changed anchors 10-00 PM. put the other anchor on, not knowing it was worse than the Danforth,.
All this time, I was drifting amongst 4 other boats, Thats not fun,
It rolls over and wont reset, I think its a CQR.

Went back to the Danforth. It dragged in the Burnett River, Bundaberg, 4 times, These anchors have got to go, They are crap.
First thing when I get home, New anchors, I didnt get home,

Two brand new Super Sarca's. I can make them easily, nothing in them, But they do hold,

Thats a lot of money floating there, (Boat,) And I want it to stay where I park it, not float all over the place, willy nilly, especially not floating amongst other boats,

Next time I anchored was at Broughton Island, You know the result there,
I did have the intention of buying another anchor at Port Stephens, Just for peice of mind, But it didnt happen, I didnt get there,

Cheers,
Brian,
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Old 23-01-2012, 18:27   #165
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Re: Just When You Think You're Safe . . . CRASH !

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But I am learning from it, and I hope it helps some else as well.
I really do appreciate your posting this experience to the forum, have read from beginning. As I've also only recently started sailing regularly the anchoring science discussed here has been enlightening, storing it up for when I need it. Hoping everything is put right and in good order once again for you.
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