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Old 30-12-2014, 10:20   #31
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

I have some ideas that may be worth sharing:

1) It would be nice to have the option of dropping the rudder, should the lowest bracket go. We could limit the damage then. Alas, on most boats, a rudder cannot be easily dropped at sea. Most are difficult to drop at the dock, with all tools and plenty of available muscle power.

2) Only very few designs of spare rudders will work. I have seen complete sets ready to be deployed "at any time". Except that there is no way they could be deployed in anything but a marina with zero swell and boat snug at the dock.

One emergency design that would work is to build a cassette rudder box with a foil that is a drop in. The cassette will be fixed to an outboard bracket.

Beyond any doubt, an "indestructible" rudder design and build are a primary concern for any offshore sailor, possibly twice as important for any long range ocean cruiser.

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Old 01-01-2015, 05:07   #32
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Lightbulb Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I have some ideas that may be worth sharing:

2) Only very few designs of spare rudders will work. I have seen complete sets ready to be deployed "at any time". Except that there is no way they could be deployed in anything but a marina with zero swell and boat snug at the dock.

One emergency design that would work is to build a cassette rudder box with a foil that is a drop in. The cassette will be fixed to an outboard bracket.
b.
This is what I made reference to in post #2 in this thread via this link
Kurt Hughes Multihull Design - Catamarans and Trimarans for Cruising and Charter - J46 Emergency Steering it's exactly what you're talking about. And a sugar scoop transom is a fairly decent place to work on one. You just need to set up the tether on your harness such that you can use it to lean against & stabilize yourself while working. It'd be easier than leaning over the transom.

One of the solo round the world racers mentioned the tether & sugar scoop idea in his book regarding his preparations for said contest.
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Old 01-01-2015, 05:11   #33
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Talking Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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Hmmmm... hang it on the side..??
Seems my idea/technique for emergency steering holds no value.. or is it to cheap and simple..
On the contrary, I like it very much. It's both functional, & KISS. Plus, if your "hinges" wear out, you've got plenty of material onboard to make more.
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Old 01-01-2015, 05:32   #34
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I have some ideas that may be worth sharing:

1) It would be nice to have the option of dropping the rudder, should the lowest bracket go. We could limit the damage then. Alas, on most boats, a rudder cannot be easily dropped at sea. Most are difficult to drop at the dock, with all tools and plenty of available muscle power.

2) Only very few designs of spare rudders will work. I have seen complete sets ready to be deployed "at any time". Except that there is no way they could be deployed in anything but a marina with zero swell and boat snug at the dock.

One emergency design that would work is to build a cassette rudder box with a foil that is a drop in. The cassette will be fixed to an outboard bracket.

Beyond any doubt, an "indestructible" rudder design and build are a primary concern for any offshore sailor, possibly twice as important for any long range ocean cruiser.

b.
Yes I agree on the desire for a bullet proof rudder for long range ocean sailing. I personally am not a fan of long keeled boats with barn door rudders but there is no denying that they are probably the sturdiest of all the choices out there and I really do understand why many folks make this choice. We have a partial skeg on our boat and it is a reasonable compromise between strength and manuverability. The most effective rudder is of course the spade, most folks make this choice by default as pretty much all the newer boats have them but they are the most vulnerable.
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Old 01-01-2015, 06:21   #35
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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Yes I agree on the desire for a bullet proof rudder for long range ocean sailing. I personally am not a fan of long keeled boats with barn door rudders but there is no denying that they are probably the sturdiest of all the choices out there and I really do understand why many folks make this choice. We have a partial skeg on our boat and it is a reasonable compromise between strength and manuverability. The most effective rudder is of course the spade, most folks make this choice by default as pretty much all the newer boats have them but they are the most vulnerable.
Not to be negative, or overly contrary, but properly designed, a spade rudder can be the strongest of all three. Imagine if you will, putting all of the material in a skeg, into the construction of a spade rudder, & how stout that would make it.

On my last boat, the rudder blade was a foil made of welded aluminum, constructed on the inside like an aircraft wing. With ribs welded to the shaft, & the skin welded to all of these structural points. This, mounted on a shaft about 6" in diameter where it entered the boat. And she was a 40' composite racer.
Also, if memory serves, the rudder shafts on the Dashew's lines of boats tended to be in the neighborhood of 8" in diameter. And their rudders were of stout aluminum construction also.

Many of the barn door rudders attached to keels are actually fairly vulnerable. As their lower end, & lower attachment point is at the same level as the bottom of the keel. So if the vessel goes aground, so does the rudder & it's bearings/attachments. Where as with other rudder types it's very rare for the rudder to be anywhere close to the same depth as the keel. So in all but a severe grounding, where the vessel goes through a full tide cycle or more, they have better protection.
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Old 01-01-2015, 06:45   #36
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

[QUOTE=UNCIVILIZED;1712306]Not to be negative, or overly contrary, but properly designed, a spade rudder can be the strongest of all three. Imagine if you will, putting all of the material in a skeg, into the construction of a spade rudder, & how stout that would make it.

On my last boat, the rudder blade was a foil made of welded aluminum, constructed on the inside like an aircraft wing. With ribs welded to the shaft, & the skin welded to all of these structural points. This, mounted on a shaft about 6" in diameter where it entered the boat. And she was a 40' composite racer.
Also, if memory serves, the rudder shafts on the Dashew's lines of boats tended to be in the neighborhood of 8" in diameter. And their rudders were of stout aluminum construction also.

Many of the barn door rudders attached to keels are actually fairly vulnerable. As their lower end, & lower attachment point is at the same level as the bottom of the keel. So if the vessel goes aground, so does the rudder & it's bearings/attachments. Where as with other rudder types it's very rare for the rudder to be anywhere close to the sam verye depth as the keel. So in all but a severe grounding, where the vessel goes through a full tide cycle or more, they have better protection.[/QUOTE

Well I agree with you almost entirely as spade rudders and the associated structures can be made very strong however in 95% of the modern boats they are not built that way so my remarks are reflected on the largest percentage of boats built today.
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Old 21-01-2015, 04:49   #37
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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Tell us more, what kind of rudder and what kind of boat?
Not sure if you were talking to me.

But I will answer it anyway
One rudder was lost on an RL24 Trailer yacht in about 12-15 knots. Kite up, Broad Reach, Sailing at ummmm, no idea what speed, not quite on the plane though. So about 6 lets say. Hit an underwater object and lost the rudder at the base of the stock.

Important to note, our guess it that it was a large jelly fish. We had hit multiple that day and the general consensus was it was another one that resulted in the snapped rudder.

RLs are a flighty boat. We tried to be heros and sail back using the sails, balance, buckets and lines to no avail. After some messing about, we dropped the sails and used the outboard which was able to be turned port-starboard to steer. We were only on a large lake btw.


The other broken rudder was when I was a kid on a dinghy (VJ for any Aussies) . It was fatigue in about 15 knots. There was some hidden rot inside. Sailing that boat back was easy. Lie down and drop the legs over the transom (surfboard style) and used the legs to steer. Its not fast. But do-able on a "very" small boat.

Both these happened on nice sunny days. Both days were moderate conditions. Bad things can happen on good days as well as bad. Just ask anyone whos fallen overboard. Most of them fell over on a good day!
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Old 21-01-2015, 04:56   #38
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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Not to be negative, or overly contrary, but properly designed, a spade rudder can be the strongest of all three. Imagine if you will, putting all of the material in a skeg, into the construction of a spade rudder, & how stout that would make it.

On my last boat, the rudder blade was a foil made of welded aluminum, constructed on the inside like an aircraft wing. With ribs welded to the shaft, & the skin welded to all of these structural points. This, mounted on a shaft about 6" in diameter where it entered the boat. And she was a 40' composite racer.
Also, if memory serves, the rudder shafts on the Dashew's lines of boats tended to be in the neighborhood of 8" in diameter. And their rudders were of stout aluminum construction also.

Many of the barn door rudders attached to keels are actually fairly vulnerable. As their lower end, & lower attachment point is at the same level as the bottom of the keel. So if the vessel goes aground, so does the rudder & it's bearings/attachments. Where as with other rudder types it's very rare for the rudder to be anywhere close to the same depth as the keel. So in all but a severe grounding, where the vessel goes through a full tide cycle or more, they have better protection.
I won't debate the strength of a Dashew spade rudder because I have personally looked at them and they are impressive but 99.5% of all other spade rudders are built very lightly in comparison, actually not even close to being in the same league in my opinion.
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Old 21-01-2015, 06:14   #39
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

I don't have a transom, but I'm thinking one of my dinghy oars, firmly lashed to a boat hook should do the trick. But hung off the side kind of like a Viking steering sweep.

Assuming TransmitterDan is right about this happening in a gale (and I agree, that seems most likely), I think my approach would be to deploy some kind of drogue, let the gale blow itself out and then jury rig my repair.

Under normal sailing conditions my boat tracks like a freight train. I need very little wheel to keep the boat on course.

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Old 21-01-2015, 06:33   #40
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

I guess I'm thinking in terms of boats my size (or larger) so 40 feet.

I'm thinking I can use my fender board and spinnaker pole.

So If I strap the fender board across the back end of the boat and I've predrilled a 4 holes in it., then I can mount 2 very large U-bolts and slide the spinnaker pole through them. Assuming I have a door (or similar) attached to the end of the pole (lashed on with very tight spanish lashings and dyneema), I now only have to find a way to turn the damn thing and steer.

A set of holes drilled near the top, steering line passed through and wrapped around the pole with several turns in each direction, then led out to blocks a the sides of the transom and from there to the wheel attachement used for my windvane.

Not pretty - but should get me to where I want to go. I expect it is best to make this and test it before setting out.


Any other creative solutions?
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Old 21-01-2015, 06:42   #41
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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I guess I'm thinking in terms of boats my size (or larger) so 40 feet.



I'm thinking I can use my fender board and spinnaker pole.



So If I strap the fender board across the back end of the boat and I've predrilled a 4 holes in it., then I can mount 2 very large U-bolts and slide the spinnaker pole through them. Assuming I have a door (or similar) attached to the end of the pole (lashed on with very tight spanish lashings and dyneema), I now only have to find a way to turn the damn thing and steer.



A set of holes drilled near the top, steering line passed through and wrapped around the pole with several turns in each direction, then led out to blocks a the sides of the transom and from there to the wheel attachement used for my windvane.



Not pretty - but should get me to where I want to go. I expect it is best to make this and test it before setting out.





Any other creative solutions?

For a locked rudder maybe, reports of people that tried it in the absence of a rudder seem to suggest its ineffectual in any seaway.

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Old 21-01-2015, 07:06   #42
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

Just a couple of design notes, although they may not be relevant. My skeg hung rudder is not at the same height as my (mostly) full keel. It's about 4" higher.

Also on boat size, my 35 is a considerably heavier displacement (and there for bigger) than Juneau 40. Like 150 % type of thing.

Just thinking boat size is as much a function of displacement as length.

Oh- and I haven't tried the steering oar thing and don't actually know if it would work on a boat that size. Just throwing ideas out.

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Old 21-01-2015, 07:11   #43
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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For a locked rudder maybe, reports of people that tried it in the absence of a rudder seem to suggest its ineffectual in any seaway.

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Perhaps - but if you've lost your rudder - then any rudder will probably be better than none.

Assuming it works at all - it will help get us to some harbour.
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Old 21-01-2015, 07:32   #44
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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Perhaps - but if you've lost your rudder - then any rudder will probably be better than none.



Assuming it works at all - it will help get us to some harbour.

I beleive the hunter 50 that was lost in the ark tried that method. , didnt work in the seaway.

I suspect In any sized boat , you would have a poor lever movement , difficulty with keeping it submerged etc.

Personally I think anyone fling offshore for any duration , should have a metal tiller and rudder and the attachments for it
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Old 21-01-2015, 07:40   #45
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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...I'm thinking one of my dinghy oars, firmly lashed to a boat hook should do the trick...
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