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Old 29-12-2014, 07:56   #16
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pirate Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

Obviously the cord would be tighter than illustrated then where they cross acts like a hinge..
Luddite Pintels... lol
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Old 29-12-2014, 08:14   #17
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

Given that we all sail with Murphy and his pal McGuyver a real spare rudder onboard will likely prevent the loss of the ships' rudder. Fore warned is fore armed.
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Old 29-12-2014, 09:09   #18
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper View Post
Given that we all sail with Murphy and his pal McGuyver a real spare rudder onboard will likely prevent the loss of the ships' rudder. Fore warned is fore armed.
If I am not mistaken there are some races that require an emergency rudder set up. Most I have seen tend to favor a cassette arrangement. My boat is shoal draft with a spade rudder almost as deep as the keel and no skeg. Making an emergency rudder is on my list. They don't have to be beautiful to work.
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Old 29-12-2014, 09:26   #19
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

Terra Nova has a self contained wind vane self steering (not yet mounted) which will suffice as a completely separate steering system, should the rudder or steering fail catastrophically. This provides for un-manned steering as well as a backup rudder.
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Old 29-12-2014, 09:48   #20
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
In this situation I believe you have a distinct advantage with your long keeled boat
Half right. Lose the rudder on a long keeled boat and the Center of Lateral Resistance barely moves forward. Plus these boats are very heading stable (difficult to turn...). Lose the rudder on a fin keeled boat with a performance rudder hung far aft and the Center of Lateral Resistance moves far forward. These rudders carry significant side loads even when sailing straight with balanced sails (the blade is wet, it might as well be doing something...)

A jury-rigged rudder on a fin keeled boat is going to be a real challenge. If you have a swim step or sugar scoop even more so. Consider rigging it over the side rather than over the transom.There is no big advantage to it being centered.

Consider you will be sailing very much downwind. Probably under a small headsail. To a distant refuge far from your intended destination. Fresh water and patience are more likely to be the big problems.

This boat carries a real spare rudder that hangs on a transom track. The A/P can even drive it.
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Old 29-12-2014, 11:29   #21
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

Carsten, this might be what you're looking for: http://sfbaysss.net/resource/doc/kam...ncy-rudder.pdf
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Old 30-12-2014, 00:42   #22
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Post Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
If I am not mistaken there are some races that require an emergency rudder set up. Most I have seen tend to favor a cassette arrangement. My boat is shoal draft with a spade rudder almost as deep as the keel and no skeg. Making an emergency rudder is on my list. They don't have to be beautiful to work.
You're correct on this. It's one of the points which I tried to hammer home in SmackDaddy's Rudder Failure's thread. And the early portions of the thread, plus some of the info which I put in on what kinds of loads rudders see (and are often GROSSLY underestimated), plus preventative maint., are worth reading.

About boats with fin keels losing their rudders being more difficult to balance than full keeled boats, yes, it's true. And like you noticed, the boat's more controllable at lower speeds when this happens. Which may be your only choice. But then, you're only trying to limp into the nearest port under such circumstances anyway.

One other thing came to mind, & that is, that without a rudder, I'm thinking that a boat'll behave much as if it has a SERIOUS case of weather helm. So applying the usual fixes for that condition could/should prove somewhat helpful. Especially as, again, we're making the boat a bit more docile.
That, & likely, shifting as much weight aft (and to weather) as possible would help some, as it'd immerse more of the hull aft, & thus, to some degree, the CLR will move (aft) with it.

To get a good, or better feel for steering via the sails, it's helpful to take out something small to practice with. Like say a J-24, where you can literally sit on the cabin top with the boom in your hands & steer the boat.
On that design (and a lot of others, even 12m's), how the main is handled/positioned can be of sufficient magnitude to completely override the rudder.

Likely a windsurfer or Laser would be a good practice tool too.
And on all of these small boats, one gets a lot more feedback (learning) in terms of how weight placement affects things as well. Given that your body weight is fairly large in relation to the boat's displacement.

For emergency rudders on non sugar scoop transomed boats, you can have a set of massive, pintles & gudgeons made relatively inexpensively. Well,for like a few hundred $. And then do some serious reinforcing of your transom prior to mounting them (I can't emphasize this enough).
Your emergency rudder should be stupid strong. Kurt Hughes has some good info on how foils fail, & some wisdom on building reliable ones. And once the rudder's built, it can be stashed in that bunk you use as a catch all, or mounted to the overhead somewhere down below.
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Old 30-12-2014, 04:35   #23
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pirate Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

Hmmmm... hang it on the side..??
Seems my idea/technique for emergency steering holds no value.. or is it to cheap and simple..
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Old 30-12-2014, 05:31   #24
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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Rudders don't usually break except in gale conditions SNIP
Yes they do. I have lost two rudders in fair weather and none in gale conditions. One was due to an underwater object and one was due to fatigue.
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Old 30-12-2014, 05:35   #25
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

Tell us more, what kind of rudder and what kind of boat?
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Old 30-12-2014, 08:09   #26
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
Carsten, this might be what you're looking for: http://sfbaysss.net/resource/doc/kam...ncy-rudder.pdf
Thank you - this is great stuff

And thank you too Boatie - your concept is what I also had in mind. The difficulty as I see it is attaching the thing to the boat. I suppose in a pinch it would be possible to run a line from the shaft under the boat and around the keel and up to be tied off. A line like this on either side of the keel would hold the bottom of the shaft in place.

Any ohter ideas of how to make something like this from you have on board?
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Old 30-12-2014, 09:00   #27
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

In our case, this is a stern-hung outboard rudder (double-ender hull). So all it takes is a long heavy oar and you are set to go on. Dead simple (on a sub-30' boat).

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Old 30-12-2014, 09:11   #28
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

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...I suppose in a pinch it would be possible to run a line from the shaft under the boat and around the keel and up to be tied off. A line like this on either side of the keel would hold the bottom of the shaft in place...
Very much doubt that.
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Old 30-12-2014, 09:30   #29
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Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

I think this discussion points out the importance of having an emergency rudder that has been demonstrated to work already at hand instead of trying to jury rig something at sea. There was an emergency rudder kit available but when I looked at it I could see that, other than at the dock, it would be very difficult and dangerous to fit to the boat. In other than very calm conditions that is. That is why the cassette emergency rudders are so popular. The cassette can be fitted and the rudder inserted without struggling against the force of the water as the boat bounces around.

I only know of one man who single handedly jury rigged a rudder when his (dare I say it) Hunter 49 lost its rudder in the south Pacific. He did manage to get to some shelter and was later towed to a port where he could have a new rudder flown in. He used the spinnaker pole/cabinet door method. But it was not easy. He was a strong man and very determined.

Edit: Add: I also read a story of a long keel traditional boat that went to the aid of a fin keeled boat that had lost its rudder. It was very difficult to tow, even using warps. The author of the story proclaimed, that in his view, fin keeled/spade rudder boats should not be sold as cruising boats. Something like that anyway. In articles dealing with other rudder losses, besides the abandoned boats, it was clear to me that unless one had an adequate crew it would be very difficult to get a rudderless boat home, even with a longish keel boat.
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Old 30-12-2014, 09:34   #30
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pirate Re: Juryrigging a Rudder

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Thank you - this is great stuff

And thank you too Boatie - your concept is what I also had in mind. The difficulty as I see it is attaching the thing to the boat. I suppose in a pinch it would be possible to run a line from the shaft under the boat and around the keel and up to be tied off. A line like this on either side of the keel would hold the bottom of the shaft in place.

Any ohter ideas of how to make something like this from you have on board?
For <30ft it works with a gang plank.. and tying it on works well.. Wharram has been using that method with his rudders for years... not sure about the spinnaker pole tho'.. may need stiffening..
just don't treat it like you would a spare tyre.. keep the loads down.. it may have to last a while..
There's no shaft..
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